Does what make me most sad about Brexit make other leave voters sad?

[TooTiredToTidy]

The saddest thing for me of all about Brexit (and there are soooo many) is that it's the country I was born in and have loved and been proud of all my life isn't the one I knew after all. I recently re-watched the London 2012 opening ceremony and it made me super sad because I remember being so proud of my country as I saw it - multicultural, diverse, open, tolerant, celebrating of knowledge, achievement, working together, ensuring fairness prevailed.

And since I've found out it isn't. There is more racism and more xenophobia than I realised. I found out so many of my countrymen have been simmering with so much anger, that what I thought was a bit of nostalgia is actually a real desire to live in the rose-tinted past, that we are sick of experts, that we so hate being part of the EU we are fine to screw over our the youth who overwhelming wanted to remain scientists (ditto) Scotland (ditto) Northern Ireland (ditto) etc. That we are more little England than Great Britain.

The huge rise in hate crime post Brexit has not personally impacted me but has impacted people I know. People who do and don't come from the EU have been told to 'go back to where you come from' and when speaking a foreign language told to speak English.

This German woman who rang into LBC radio show literally made me cry and feel heartbroken: www.lbc.co.uk/im-so-scared-now-german-woman-hit-by-xenophobia-calls-james-in-tears-132971

I know not many leave voters will have directly anticipated all these things happening but I want to know how they feel about them themselves? Other online trolls/posters I've asked just deny the rise in hate crime or say you can't believe everything you hear and say it's not happening. It is happening.

Equally if you've experienced something yourself as either an immigrant or is hate crime related I'd really like to hear about it.

Misti I don't believe that the referendum result gives the government a mandate to reduce non-EU migration, no. However I do believe that most people want to see overall immigration numbers reduced (polls were pretty consistently around 70% of the population thinking this, before the referendum campaigns started), so I think the government are correct to pursue this aim.

So what do you think (be honest) about the "open to the world" bollocks being spouted above? It's clear that most countries which want a FTA with Britain will want labour movement to be part of the deal (eg India). IIRC net non-EU Immigration is currently running around 180k per annum. How do we get below 100k without slashing non-EU migration? For total net migration to be in the "tens of thousands", and assuming that after Brexit we're still going to need some EU migrants, this implies that non-EU migration may need to fall to as little as 50k ie less than a third of current levels.

This is closing the UK off from the world, not opening it up, unless you plan to use alt-maths to spin the immigration numbers somehow.

I cannot imagine what is in the minds of people who talk about British culture who think that we don't currently have it
Obviously you don't feel this, but why do you deny that other people do? And often its a feeling that is not easy to put into words but that does not make it any less valid.

So you would like to see all those foreign shops, hairdressers etc gone from our high streets, Jamie? What about multinational chains? Are they allowed to stay if they present a British-feeling front? Is it just European shops etc that you don't like, or do you also think there are too many Indian/Thai/Chinese restaurants?

And how low would you like to see animal welfare and food standards go once we leave the EU?

I'm having trouble seeing what exactly it is you are hoping to return to.

"And often its a feeling that is not easy to put into words but that does not make it any less valid"

So you are happy that whatever consequences of Brexit may come, it's worth it for the sake of a feeling that some have which is hard to put into words?

Kaija Fair enough. I misunderstood your post.

My question still stands as a general one though.

Misti I think the open to the world bollocks is a minority leave view. I don't think swapping from from EU to non-EU countries would make many leavers happy. It's not what I want.

I'm with you, OP. What makes me sad is that stupidity, small-mindedness and racism won the day. I thought I loved this country, its people, its progress and it's diversity - turns out I'm in a minority. Jamies post is particularly depressing. And that's the mentality that's won the day.

Our schools are being isolated by segregated communities from different cultures
I certainly dislike the whole idea of faith schools - but think 'our schools' is a bit much - and it's the fact of faith and free schools,, not 'different cultures' that makes this happen.
Our language having to be translated into twenty others
Why would you hate that? I think it's brilliant! How can it possibly harm you?
Our high streets having shops/hairdressers dedicated to separate cultures
They're not 'dedicated' to them - they're responding to a market for things other than, I dunno, spotted dick and brisket or whatever you think is Properly British. As for 'hairdressers' - I think it's obvious what you mean by that
Our animal welfare and food production being dictated by fear of upsetting foreign cultures
I guess you're thinking about halal meat. How do you think leaving the EU is going to sort that out?
And the more cultures we have the more we take on their problems
And their culture, and their expertise, and their diversity, and their music and food and language .... but no, let's stick with rice pudding and racism, huh?
We used to have to avoid the rough part of town, now we need to also avoid the ghettos of different cultures
Why?

I think the problem with the Brexit debate is that it confusedly conflates the EU and problems with social cohesion brought about by high levels of immigration to the UK over the past twenty years.

There ARE problems with immigration to the UK. People have not been able to say this for many years because the only acceptable narrative has been that ALL immigration is a GOOD thing. This has led to a lot of pent up frustration in areas where low skilled immigration has massively undercut local wages and driven working conditions down for many people. Problems have been exacerbated in areas where immigrant groups form a majority and where they are reluctant to learn English and integrate/assimilate with the general population.

These problems will not be solved by Brexit. We have full employment in the UK so jobs will need to be filled. Immigrants - both EU and non EU will continue to enter the country to fulfill vital functions and these issues of social cohesion will persist unless systematically addressed.

If anything, they will get worse as the UK suffers a disorderly exit from the EU, huge disruption to trade, inflation etc. There will be even less money to address these issues. Theresa May's suggestion that this will lead to us changing our economic model will be music to the ears of many employers: lower taxes, lower wages, less employment protection etc. etc.

And the poor, dispossessed Brexiteers who have voted for the sunlit uplands will be the first to suffer.

I just want to pick on one comment
Our high streets having shops/hairdressers dedicated to separate cultures

So, a while ago, there was a discussion on MN about how British people have invaded some areas in Europe (think France or Spain) where locals end up having to have signs in English because there ar so many English people living there and they don't speak the local language.
I was told that it makes sense, it's good for their business so why having a go at the Brits that they had to use English.
But now, when we don't talk about language but just products (you know like being able to have a British newspaper or finding proper English tea), then it's not acceptable anymore.

I can actually understand the sentiment behind that. I will not accept it if it's only a one way street and the same Brits are happy to settle in Spain and whatnot and then expect the locals to provide for 'proper food/tea' and speak English to them.

Misti I think the open to the world bollocks is a minority leave view. I don't think swapping from from EU to non-EU countries would make many leavers happy. It's not what I want.

Then you're not a hypocrite (a bit xenophobic maybe ...).

I was addressing the posters who do think that we should throw open our borders to the world - while reducing non-EU migration - a feat which is only possible using alt-maths. There are at least three of them in the first few posts on this thread (looking at you caroldecker, reallytired and odin )

So, a while ago, there was a discussion on MN about how British people have invaded some areas in Europe (think France or Spain) where locals end up having to have signs in English because there ar so many English people living there and they don't speak the local language.

In my bit of France - which is by no means as overrun with British people as other areas such as the Dordogne - there are British bars and British sections in the supermarket. Unlike most EU migrants in the UK, almost none of the local British people speak the local language fluently, so most of them couldn't integrate even if they wanted to.

I know what you mean in certain parts of Spain, where tapas is verging on becoming 'small components of a full English breakfast'. And a lot of dentists and estate agents.

However, I think there's a difference between wealthy ex-pat or holiday-making Brits going to Spain and expecting No Foreign Muck, and communities from many different cultures in this country bringing with them the market for, and ability to provide, different food (for example).

I think if you have moved to Spain, or go on holiday to Spain, because you like the climate and the cheap housing, it's a bit mad/a bit of a shame to want to take the sunshine but leave the food and the language. I also think communities in this country, whether native or not, could integrate better, and that would be better all round.

Seek I agree with you

This is a country where stir fry has just overtaken Chicken Tikka Masala as the favourite dish, once upon a time it was Fish and Chips, itself a result of the influence of immigrants from Europe. I grew up in as British a 60s environment as I can imagine, a village with three christian churches, a war memorial, and a social mix surviving on the back of a mill and a quarry. Yet half the children I played with on the rec had Eastern European surnames, and a few had different coloured skins and a lot of us had ancestors that were Irish. if you had asked we would all have said we were proud to be Yorkshire first and then some vague meaningless notion of British, that came from having atlases with countries all coloured pink, second. Britain has always been a country of immigrants and it seems that theses attitudes come from people who have had little actual experience of it.

To quote self

But when British or heaven forbid English culture is mentioned, the reaction is more often than not either disbelief that such a thing exists or sneering

Seek's post is an example - British culture = rice pudding and racism, brisket and spotted dick. Righto.

Jamie Do you have any thoughts on why culture is seem as such a positive thing unless it's British or English culture?

Eleanor yes you are right. Immigration is an issue as such as well as how do you integrate so many different cultures.
I personally have always being astonished by the British idea that you should accept people and their culture when they settle in the uk, food, ways of dressing etc etc. I always wondered how you get cohesion within the country with so many different subcultures.

The country I'm coming from has a very different idea about that. If you arrive there, you are supposed to fit in, to completely fit in until no one can actually spot you arent from that country. In private, if you want to have special foods, celebrations etc... it's totally within your rights. But not in the public sphere.
That creates a lot of other problems, and my insure would clearly be that there need to be more flexibility and more acceptance of people ways.

The issue of how you keep some sort of uniformity so that everyone feels they belong to the same place/culture is an important one.

On the other side, there is no going back to the fact that we are living in a world where people move from country to country.
There is also no going back on the fact that the uk has an aging population with a natality rate below 2 without all the immigrants. A natality rate below two means no money to pay pensions for the elderly, no money for the NHS and the increased needs an an economy that goes down hill.
There is also no going back on the fact that innovation is build on bringing the right people and the right people aren't always British.... so research, companies all need some immigration to thrive.

How you include those people is the challenge. Brexit isn't going to solve that issue because Of all the points above though...

So what is this British culture that we're losing thanks to foreign shops and hairdressers, Wrong? I gave those examples because it's actually quite hard to think of a dish that is enjoyed in the UK that is utterly British in origin.

British culture =/= spotted dick. But if we eliminate all the variety, diversity, difference and interest, it's hard to see what would be left, using food as an obvious example.

The figure of 87% is complete political spin, its meaningless. I have been through the process a few times and talked about it for years in the playground and coffee shops with dozens of parents. Your first choice school is usually one you will NEVER get into and is pointless even putting on the form. Your 'so called' first choice is really the least objectionable worst choice

Where i live there are barely any parents that do not get their first choice of school

I dont know anyone

It must obviously differ from place to place

Wrong, I would say the answer to your question is that the reason we don't talk much about British culture, as opposed to Scottish for example, is because it is all around us all the time so invites little comment. Minority cultures are very visible by their difference; dominant cultures we just accept as the landscape.

Seek can you explain how his is different, between let's say Brits in Spain and Germans or french in the uk?
Do you really think that all the British IMMIGRANTS are wealthy? And that all the EU EXPATS aren't?

In reality, a lot of Brits in Spain rely on their pension (and you know it's not much).
And a lot of EU immigrants are very well educated (think your doctors, nurses, engineers etc)

Seek can you explain how his is different, between let's say Brits in Spain and Germans or french in the uk?

My experience of German or French immigrants in the UK is that they pretty much invariably speak perfect English and don't open their own hairdressers or shops!

Misti

Then you're not a hypocrite

Why, thank you

(a bit xenophobic maybe ...)

Well, if your definition of xenophobic is someone who wants to see lower immigration...

I'll just mention again that before the referendum campaign started, around 70% of the population wanted to see lower immigration. The remain campaign tried very hard to paint not wanting foreedom of movement with the EU as nasty xenophobia bigotry, and I think they have succeeded quite well in this narrative, despite being untrue, becoming the accepted view.

But the reality is, before the campaigns started, the vast majority of the population (therefore presumable many remain voters) were unhappy with the existing level of immigration.

I don't agree with you OP.

We are a multicultural country and always will be.

I think by leaving the EU and openly addressing concerns about immigration we are saving the UK from the rise of the far right.

If you want to think about 'proper' British food, I'm thinking scones and Yorkshire puddings. I'm thinking afternoon tea and sandwiches for lunch. I'm thinking about all the little cakes for tea. Christmas meal with all the trimmings (pigs in blanket, stuffing etc etc).
There is plenty of British music around in the charts. Etc

The issue though you first need to ask is whether 'culture' as such is something that is seen as something important within the British culture. Ime, compare to other countries, it isn't.
E.g. In France there are some clear rules about the amount of french programs/music you have to have on TV and radio - to protect said culture.

Yes seek this is my experience too.

If you want to think about 'proper' British food, I'm thinking scones and Yorkshire puddings. I'm thinking afternoon tea and sandwiches for lunch. I'm thinking about all the little cakes for tea. Christmas meal with all the trimmings (pigs in blanket, stuffing etc etc).
There is plenty of British music around in the charts. Etc

yes, but we have all that, don't we? Or have the immigrants been stopping anyone having little cakes for tea?