The blame for Brexit. Its not those who voted to leave.

[RBeer]

Something has been puzzling me for a while and i have yet to read it anywhere.

I know people who voted for the referendum by voting Tory , voted to remain and yet blame the brexit on those who voted leave.

Surely the blame should be squared directed at those who elected that King of Spades, Cameron, into government.

You cant blame the child for shooting himself in the face if it was you who handed him the gun.

The history books will read as follows:

Just over half the country voted for an EU Referendum and Just over half of the country voted out.

And students will ask why this was such a surprise ?

I don't understand why we are still discussing the "net contribution" of the UK to the EU in terms of the amount that was paid into the EU budget. The economic benefits of being a member of the EU / single market far outweigh the amount that was paid in, whether net or gross, with the rebate or not. The budgetary contribution is an irrelevance in the context of the monumental economic cost of leaving the single market (something that is now seriously being discussed, and is utter madness in my opinion).

Would have been rather different if instead of that NHS 350 written on the bus it was 'Internal Tory Politics - Carry on'.

RBeer That is true but then it was an election that was delivered by managing to combine a project fear that exploited the sense that the economy was at risk under Labour (which they tried again but with Labour crossed out and Brexit in it's place) with a focus on those same factors that drove the anti EU vote, especially immigration where he helped create the monster in people's minds, another source of his culpability, together with the credibility of David Cameron as leader. I live in a marginal constituency and that was the drum being beaten, the only candidate mentioning the EU was the deranged character standing for UKIP. I don't think the referendum was something that was the basis of most people's decision to vote for David Cameron, who was after all always behind Remain, and most people in any case assumed right until the early hours of that morning in June assumed would deliver a decision to remain.

Yes i agree "whatwoudrondo".

I was speaking with an old acquaintance who is a history professor recently and he said something to me which I cant forget.
I asked him jokingly about the recent 'Independence' of the UK and he said he truly hoped that it was not. I inquired and he stated that what comes after an Independence is civil war which is a far more brutal period.

I agree Missmoon, but the its the "taking back control" point that the brexiteers keep making.

I'll say it again, if the economy falls 0.5% all of the net contribution is wiped off the tax take, therefore it would be taking back control of nothing.

Missmoon What you've done there though is not distinguished between the EU and the single market. It is (in theory) quite possible to have access to the single market without being a member of the EU. Of course the EU are unlikely to give it to us for fear of setting a precedent - particularly for those other Eurosceptic net contributors.

I've yet to meet anyone that isn't in favour of a single market. The EU project is something quite different.

smallfox It really isn't that simple though. The economy is cyclical and exchange rate movements have a far bigger impact than notional GDP.

What happens if Tory voters wanted some of the other policies outlined by Cameron, and the referendum came with it? I'm not sure every Conservative vote was a vote for a referendum.

It is that simple, if there is a negative 0.5% in GDP growth ( measured in real GDP not nominal) you can accurately predict that there will be less money taken in tax because there will have been less economic activity.

Also access to the single market will mean abiding by, and implementing EU regulations, like EEA countries, without having any say in making them. I've yet to find someone who can counter that problem. Without doing this we won't get full access to the EU market.

What happens if Tory voters wanted some of the other policies outlined by Cameron, and the referendum came with it? I'm not sure every Conservative vote was a vote for a referendum

Yes indeed. But it looks now that whatever policies they were, they are now to be overshadowed by the EU ref.

I have to agree with whatwouldrondo
Cameron's behaviour was an absolute disgrace, and I sincerely hope that his reputation remains tarnished in history. He did, of course, not expect to win, so he was going to blame the Lib Dems for not letting him have a referendum. Even so, he still had ample time before he needed to call a Referendum, so should have done his homework, and should have found out that the Tory grassroots were not supportive of him. When the history books are written, I think people will look back in utter credulity at his stupidity.

RBeer: I inquired and he stated that what comes after an Independence is civil war which is a far more brutal period.
At the end of the disappointing BBC programme on Monday night, where the thrust of the argument seemed to be it was Corbyn's fault for not delivering a Remain vote, Laura Kuenssberg talked about their being a quiet coup. This made me thing exactly the way your historian friend did - after coups, come bloodshed.

The economy goes up and down all the time. Long before the EU was even conceived, it's not new. We're strong enough to weather the storm. I honestly think that history will judge the brexiteers more kindly than mumsnet

But access to any market means abiding by the regulations that pertain to it. That's really not unusual. Also, if having a minor say in determining the EU regs means that we're not free to trade independently elsewhere.......

We're strong enough to weather the storm.

I think that is an extremely debatable statement. In the past, yes, because we were dependent on the wealth of our Empire.

Yes, the economy does go up and down, but most people would prefer either a time of stability or prosperity. Not many people welcome recession, although undoubtedly, some will find ways to prosper. At best with Brexit, we have voted for a pig in a poke and we haven't a clue what the final settlement will be.

"The economy goes up and down all the time. Long before the EU was even conceived, it's not new."

Thanks for the economic history lesson, but I was pointing out that the extra money won't be available if the economy falls.

Also this time, we've chosen to do the short term damage to the economy, and put the long term in jeopardy too. If there is a recession in the short term the uncertainty of the outcomes of brexit will make recovery a lot harder.

These maginifcent trade deals that people keep referring to better be really good if trade with the EU falls, its going to take a fair amount of work to make the current 5% of trade with the BRICS countries to be as beneficial to the UK as the EU has been.

Even if people are unsure whether they have felt the positives of being in the EU they, and all of us, all sadly feel the negatives.

At best with Brexit, we have voted for a pig in a poke and we haven't a clue what the final settlement will be.

The barking dog caught the car and now doesn't know what to do with it.

It will take a fair amount of work, but as a late and reluctant Brexiteer, I was sick to death of this country being talked down, as if we were somehow incapable of making a fist of it on our own.

The extra money might not be available, but then I've long thought (regardless of the EU) that there needs to be a fundamental reckoning in terms of what we expect from the State.

I personally see this as a time for optimism. The pearl-clutching on here is frankly tiresome. I don't envy our transatlantic cousins much; but I do see their boundless optimism and wish (in that sense) we could be more like them.

Agree with Peregrina, Cameron's decision was disgraceful.

Re:: Blackpool sea front - you do know (ReallyTired and others) that these were decisions taken by the UK ...central, regional and local ... to put these projects forward for EU funding. Nothing was imposed on Blackpool by the EU (despite how some of the press would like to spin it). Simply factually untrue.

I personally see this as a time for optimism

And they said it would be over my xmas aswell.

We're exactly like them.

We've just voted for a course of action that was based on a campaign of meaningless soundbites run by a blond buffoon, they are about to elect a president on the same thing.

Both of them are shooting ourselves in the foot.

You can see it as a time of optimism all you like, but it doesn't make it true.

I'm fully of the opinion that the Brexit vote will end up being mostly meaningless. We will still have free trade with the EU, follow and implement their regulations and have freedom of movement, we'll still contribute, but get no rebates etc.

Lots of people will be very disappointed that in fact their vote didn't change what they wanted it to.

malice I was sick to death of this country being talked down, as if we were somehow incapable of making a fist of it on our own. Because of course it is a matter of negativity or positivity rather than rationally looking at the nature of the UK economy in the 21st century, the sources of it's competitive advantage versus the other world economies, and how Brexit, hard or soft, would affect that and concluding along with most economists that it will struggle. As Peregrina says we no longer have the advantages we had in even the last century as a result of our history, the advantages we have now arise from the EU economic partnership, our strength in the financial services industry, in certain areas of high tech manufacturing eg gas turbines and pre-eminence in Science and Technology. Any analyst would have to say that Brexit puts the most important of those advantages at the greatest risk, whilst exploiting the opportunities, eg to trade with the rest of the world, in competition with all those rising economies already on a trajectory to build competitive advantage in a global economy and seeing Brexit as an opportunity from India to China to Russia to Korea to ........, is going to be tough. You call it talking your country down and pearl clutching (no pearls here, just a computer that I use to understand the world) I call it being informed and realistic. But then this is post fact Britain.....

I personally see this as a time for optimism.
So what do you, personally, plan to do? The next time a project doesn't get the EU funding it was in line for, will you be out there organising fund raisers to make up the shortfall?

We will still have free trade with the EU, follow and implement their regulations and have freedom of movement, we'll still contribute, but get no rebates etc.
Maybe. If so, and I think I have said before, it's a win-win situation for the other 27. We pay most of our dues, but they don't have to put up with us bleating how this that or the other isn't fair and we want extra concessions.

I see Cameron's actions differently. I suspect he called for the referendum sooner, rather than later, in his time in office because he sensed that to leave it any longer would bring a turn in the tide as it were.

Of course, the U.K. plumped for 'leave' but at that point, Cameron could not have known that. I think his feeling was that the longer he left it, the more likely a 'leave' vote would be.

I've yet to meet anyone that isn't in favour of a single market. The EU project is something quite different.

Lots of Leave voters (apparently) want out of the single market. See the Telegraph, various Tory and UKIPers, Conservative Home etc.

I don't agree with leaving the EU, but would settle for remaining in the single market and signing up to Horizon2020, Erasmus etc. But that doesn't seem to be on the cards right now.