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Brexit

Actual economic effects cont...

395 replies

ManonLescaut · 10/08/2016 13:58

Telegraph: Britain could be up to 70 billion worse off if it leaves the single market IFS warns

The respected economic think tank said that Britain could enjoy an extra 4 per cent in national income if it remains in the single market, equivalent to two years worth of growth.

The report claims that while leaving the EU will free the UK from an estimated £8 billion a year of budget contributions, the loss of trade from Brexit could hit tax receipts by a larger amount.

It found new trade deals would be unlikely to make up for lost EU trade, which accounts for 44 per cent of British exports and 39 per cent of service exports.

Telegraph: Treasury looks at quitting the single market

Officials say the talks have revealed a willingness among some top figures to scrap passporting despite early calls to stay in the single market from some quarters...

Mr Boleat cast doubt over the UK’s ability to secure a Norway-style deal to remain in the single market. He said accepting free movement of people and paying large sums to Brussels while accepting its rules would not be politically acceptable.

The BBA wants the UK to leave the single market but retain unimpeded access to EU markets.

OP posts:
whatwouldrondo · 07/09/2016 16:49

Corcory The reports in the Telegraph? Quoting a hardline reciter MEP? Dapple came up with that one on another thread so I did some digging and guess what some of the 27 countries want an EU army but they can't agree what they want it for, some for border control, some for defence, some for peace keeping, so they will probably be arguing about that for years with every country having a veto, never mind the nitty gritty you would need in place to make any of those options work. What they have got is a military plan (this was the only bit of the Telegraph article that was fact and not just scaremongering speculation. The military plan has some obvious mutual benefits arising from eg economies through joint procurement that the Uk was already signed up to and would not have vetoed. It really pays to look buying the stories of the leave press you know. They will print what you want to hear not the ambiguous reality .....

smallfox2002 · 07/09/2016 16:50

But you see all of those voting in could say that they knew what they would get. All of the promises made by the leave campaign met a whole host of interests many of emigrants have no chance of being met.

Peregrina · 07/09/2016 20:19

to rebuild a manufacturing industry.

Governments of both left and right tried to shore up the UK car industry, to no effect over the years. This is why the car plants are now owned by Japan and Germany.

RBeer · 08/09/2016 15:28

Some common sense from the FT

What was all the fuss about? The sun is still shining, the economy is growing and Scotland has not seceded. It is time for pro-European doomsters to admit it: Brexit was good for Britain. Now the world awaits its return as a truly “sovereign” nation. All that remains is for Theresa May’s government to step up the pace of negotiations in order to sever ties with Brussels sooner rather than later.
So says the prevailing mood nearly three months after the popular vote to take Britain out of the EU. One could quibble with the detail. The latest rises in some economic indicators reflect a reversal of earlier post-Brexit falls rather than a sign of a coming boom. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence that business is holding back on investment. The public finances are set to worsen. As for the fall of sterling, well, yes, it has made exports cheaper, but at the expense of lowering living standards. The nation once jeered when a former Labour prime minister, Harold Wilson, claimed devaluation did not hit the pound in voters’ pockets.

No matter. Hubristic denial is the order of the day. In any event, an argument about the immediate impact of the vote misses the point. The Brexiters now trumpeting a bright independent future see departure from the EU as an event. In truth it will be a long, tortuous process — a slow burn, if you like, with costs, economic and political, that will reach well into coming decades. To make such an obvious point is not to talk Britain down: the fact that things seem fine now says next to nothing about the consequences along the road.
Mrs May was reminded of this as she cut a rather lonely figure in meetings with other leaders at the G20 gathering in Hangzhou. No, the US will not put Britain at the head of the queue for future trade deals. And yes, Japanese companies will step back from investing in the UK if the government takes it out of the EU single market. Allies and trading partners are at one in concluding Britain will be diminished by Brexit. A few kind words from the Australian government are scant consolation.
To to be fair to Mrs May, word in Whitehall has it that she understands the scale and complexity of the challenge. When she tells the House of Commons that she has no intention of prematurely showing her negotiating hand, what she really means is that she does not yet have such a hand. The media fanfare surrounding a lengthy cabinet discussion about Brexit at Chequers, the prime minister’s country house, belied the absence of any substantive convergence towards strategic objectives. It was, by the accounts of those present, a less than enlightening conversation.
Among the decisions deferred were when Britain should begin formal negotiations by triggering Article 50 of the EU treaties; where it should seek to strike a balance between retaining access to the single market and regaining national authority over the movement of EU citizens; and whether it should cut cross-channel trade ties decisively by leaving the EU customs union.
My guess on the first of these is that the logic of the electoral calendar will persuade Mrs May to opt for the first quarter of the next year. The next election is due in mid-2020. Working back, the government will want to leave an interval before polling day in case of economic turbulence. This suggests a two-year negotiation ending before the summer of 2019 — the date, as it happens, of the next elections to the European Parliament.
Decisions two and three — the single market and the customs union — are much tougher. Here, the Brexiters in the cabinet continue to take an obstinately old-fashioned view of trade: the EU sells more to Britain than vice versa so Mrs May is certain to get a good deal.

We no longer, though, live in a world where products made in one country are simply shipped to another, leaving tariffs as the only thing that matters. Business is now defined by intricate, cross-border supply chains in which the finished product more often has multiple origins. What matters — as the Japanese government explained in its excellent assessment of the impact of Brexit — is that these chains are frictionless both in terms of standards and regulation as well as tariffs.
If Britain stays in the single market it has to accept free movement of labour — a political red line for the government — and if it remains part of the customs union it loses the opportunity to negotiate bilateral trade deals with third countries, putting Liam Fox, the newly appointed trade minister, out of a job. Yet stepping outside of these arrangements also takes Britain out of all those multinational supply chains with the concomitant cost in terms of trade, investment and employment.
Philip Hammond, the chancellor, has been quicker than colleagues to grasp the risks and trade-offs, particularly, but not solely, for the financial services industry. Mr Hammond is one of those unflashy and underrated politicians who rises to the top almost by stealth. Now he has the role he has always coveted.
He is struggling, though, to get a hearing for something a little more sophisticated than “let’s just leave”. Too many colleagues have been swept up in the so-called post-Brexit bounce. They are deaf to warnings from the Treasury — or for that matter from Washington or Tokyo. This is not a process promising anything resembling a happy ending.

Kaija · 08/09/2016 15:42

RBeer, you know the Leavers on this thread are only going to read your post up to the phrase "sooner rather than later" don't you...

IAmNotTheMessiah · 08/09/2016 17:17

So true...

prettybird · 08/09/2016 18:47

The only bit I disagree with is "My guess on the first of these is that the logic of the electoral calendar will persuade Mrs May to opt for the first quarter of the next year. The next election is due in mid-2020. Working back, the government will want to leave an interval before polling day in case of economic turbulence."

I'm coming round to the view that they'll want to leave activating A50 until late 2017 or even early 2018, precisely to avoid the economic turbulence that will result from the actual Brexit happening before the election.

That was the Tories can still claim that they've delivered Brexit, win the election and then have 5 years to try to sort out the resulting economic disaster turmoil.

Peregrina · 08/09/2016 19:21

I think you could be right prettybird - stall as long as they can, until the French and German elections are out of the way and we know who the key politicians we have to negotiate with are.

PattyPenguin · 19/09/2016 06:37

Back to actual effects... This is in the Guardian today
www.theguardian.com/business/2016/sep/19/carmakers-look-to-move-research-roles-to-eastern-europe-after-brexit-vote

Some snippets from the article, which says that car manufacturers are currently paying recruitment firms money to find candidates for jobs in Eastern Europe, not the UK. It's not someone saying "This may happen", it actually is happening.

"Carmakers are shifting their research centres to eastern Europe following the Brexit vote to lower costs and maintain unfettered access to European markets.

Recruitment firms are on the lookout for skilled staff and senior executives who can lead research and development teams in Romania, Hungary and Bulgaria.

DHR International, a recruitment firm with offices in 25 countries, said a drift towards eastern Europe in recent years had accelerated since the referendum as carmakers weigh up the costs of remaining in the UK.
...
Car firms are searching for senior product and component designers, procurement officers, software developers and back-office roles in human resources, finance and help-desk positions."

IAmNotTheMessiah · 19/09/2016 09:02

Great, we can look forward to another brain drain as our best and brightest move to Eastern Europe to get better jobs.

Oh, the irony...

topsy777 · 19/09/2016 14:23

Don't get overly excited concerned about the article.

The article says these are relocation that are in trend for several years and accelerated (which I think it is probably true) by the Brexit. So these are jobs that will go in perhaps two or so years anyway.

Now, guess what - they are not moving the job to France, Ireland or even Poland. The jobs now go to the cheapest part of the EU - Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary. Pretty sure it is not just UK that is affected, but similar jobs in the expensive part of the union as well.

The article further says these are R&D job - really, you could do the R&D in India and upload the results into UK/EU. There is no real need even for those jobs to be in the EU.

Considering the above, their overwhelming motivation is to do with lower cost than the referendum.

Peregrina · 19/09/2016 15:17

These are jobs which are going. The are not jobs coming, and yet we were told that the whole world outside the EU was going to be rushing to our door.

It will be easy for higher paid execs to work in Romania during the week - only a three hour flight away. India would require relocating.

topsy777 · 19/09/2016 15:51

Yes of course, it is all always cost/benefit/expertise balancing act.

The point is these jobs are going in any case an are primarily motivated by cost. Romania GDP per capita is around $10000, so say the skills jobs like research engineers pay twice that, so $20000. Bulgaria is $8000 or make it $16000. The same engineer will cost £40k / $52k ($/£ 1.3) in the UK.

I know of some Romanian who are very good. The question is whether they can get enough of good Romanian, Bulgarian etc. If they can, those jobs are doomed whether we (and others - France, Germany, Poland etc) are in the union or not,

Those rushing in would still rush in to for the entry level job where the rate will soon be £9/hour (x40x50 weeks)or roughly £18k pa ($23400).

Personally, I have less of an issue with those who come here for the jobs as long as it can be controlled to meet local infrastructure needs. A quota of say 0.25% of UK population pa (c 160k pa) would be acceptable but of course EU says either unlimited or get out.

If we are not highly and productive to justify our high cost, in or out of the union will make little differences.

RBeer · 19/09/2016 16:27

A quota of say 0.25% of UK population pa (c 160k pa) would be acceptable but of course EU says either unlimited or get out.

Yes . Either you are for the 4 freedoms of the EU or not. You can't just choose a percentage of one of them. Its not how the world works.

RBeer · 19/09/2016 16:29

A quota of say 0.25% of UK population pa (c 160k pa) would be acceptable but of course EU says either unlimited or get out.

And what percentage of UK people could move abroad then ?

topsy777 · 19/09/2016 16:50

"Its not how the world works."

Well..that is how the treaty (as written by the member stats) works. This is not some sort of physics constant.

fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/

90k British to live in the EU per year. So the 160k number is fair.

RBeer · 20/09/2016 15:12

I think the UK has solved its Europe Immigration problem but destroying its own economy was an un-usual way to go about it.

Mistigri · 20/09/2016 20:59

really, you could do the R&D in India and upload the results into UK/EU. There is no real need even for those jobs to be in the EU.

There isn't a single European car company that does this, and for good reasons. This isn't like moving a call centre to India.

It's true that some UK companies have been looking to move some of their R&D investment out of the UK, and that this isn't always directly related to Brexit. But in many instances it is driven by the same issue: the government's willingness to appease racists by making immigration difficult. My employer won't build new R&D facilities in the UK because it is increasingly difficult to staff them.

Mistigri · 20/09/2016 21:04

A quota of say 0.25% of UK population pa (c 160k pa) would be acceptable but of course EU says either unlimited or get out.

Net EU migration has rarely been over 160k pa - the estimate for last year was 180k but that was a record. If the full facts figures are correct, net EU migration has been over 160k pa for only two years - ever - and then only by about 10-20k people.

What cost are you prepared to pay to keep 20,000 people pa out?

topsy777 · 20/09/2016 21:27

The point is to have some sort of control. Do we have an agreement if we go for 180k? This is called negotiation. Unlimited or "you are out" is called something else.

Skills staffs - well, that is why we need to have a sensible skill base work permit scheme which is opened to worldwide qualified applicants. The large numbers of low skill migration from EU (which will not help your employer much) has caused concern by a section of the population (it doesn't affect me - but I understand their concern). Further, our obsession with NIMBYism makes the matter worst.

And so what is your concern here - being able to get skilled staffs or just ideological freedom of movement? This again is called negotiation. Unlimited or you are out is something else.

This is not a key point but I would imagine JLR would have done some R&D stuffs in India and share UK R&D result with the group. Again the point is those R&D move is to do with cost and given our high cost, unless the productivity is equally high - those jobs will be moved in any case.

Mistigri · 20/09/2016 22:09

"R&D stuffs"? :-/ Is English your native language?

No doubt it's possible to do some blue sky R&D anywhere, but in the car industry a lot of research is technical development which takes place in close collaboration with production engineers, suppliers, and regulators.

topsy777 · 20/09/2016 22:23

No. I normally speaks Martian. Sorry.

Peregrina · 21/09/2016 07:31

Tech firms moving to Berlin. Is this a straw in the wind? I know that Berlin is one of the places DD is considering relocating to.

The person in this story doesn't want to relocate, but this could change if Brexit negotiations do not go favourably.

IAmNotTheMessiah · 21/09/2016 07:50

Yes, the UK has been striving to replace it's destroyed manufacturing base with things like these high tech companies, and the specialist small scale manufacturing companies, and has been very successful. However, we can expect to lose at least some of that come Brexit, leaving the UK all the poorer, short term and long term.

Somehow, I imagine this must be wonderful, or something.

Peregrina · 21/09/2016 08:07

I imagine it will depend on which of the bigger concerns go - if investment banks go, then small IT firms servicing them, may relocate also.