To feel really positive about leaving the EU... Continued

[Valentine2]

Hi all. I learnt excellent things on the last one. Please keep them coming. Xxx

[UnderTheGreenwoodTree]

Larry - we are a country that needs to consider food security in the face of Brexit, and if we leave the single market.

We import 30% of our food from EU countries, and produce 52% ourselves, the rest is imported from around the world. According to the excellent R4 Food Programme, that means we do not have food security (import half our food). Prices on imported food will rise, because of the value of the pound.

At the very least, prices will rise, and I think the blase answer 'we can import more from Africa' or import more from further flung countries, is irresponsible in the face of climate change, food miles.

Our own food production is threatened if we restrict EU migrant workers to pick it for us. Yes, it can be argued it is a good thing if wages are pushed up as a result, but the price rises will be pushed onto the consumer.

[MuddledMuse]

Nightofthetenticle - Could you please shed some light on an area I have been very confused about regarding the need for skilled immigration? Why aren't the necessary tech skills available within the current UK population (from wherever they originated)? We have more people going to uni than at any stage in our history and yet graduates do not appear to have the right type of skills and knowledge. What on earth is going wrong?

I should add that my work brings me into contact with large numbers of post-graduates, both home grown and from elsewhere, and I am usually impressed by their ability, hard work and enthusiasm. I haven't noticed any difference in ability due to country of origin. These young people are the cream of the crop and in non-tech subjects, so my experience may not apply across the board.

[Valentine2]

larry
I don't think the figure of 3500kcal to 1 pound of fat is scientifically correct. Kindly check it again.
And our body coverts glucose into fat and that too only when there is excess of it. And eating fat to make up for calorie shortage is a terrible terrible idea scientifically. It will damage your body.
I want to find out what kind of food do we import from the world? Can anyone tell me?

[whatwouldrondo]

muddled So if you have a bigger pool from which to recruit then you are not likely to be able to recruit brighter more talented people? In Science, business and I am sure tech global, cooperation and sourcing the necessary skills to work in a global environment are important to success. In my DDs scientific field there are just two teams in this country working to advance scientific knowledge and yes she has worked alongside researchers from around the world as well as the EU because they were best equipped to push the research forward. There are other teams around the world and doubtless there are UK graduates working in them because for that opportunity they were the best qualified (of course in the future there will be a lot more - many Science graduates are now focusing on opportunities overseas as they are drying up here already)

In business a lot of the major graduate recruiters have the skills to work in global environments as a key part of their recruitment template and universities are gearing up their students by offering or even making a language compulsory, but how many students arrive at university with no language skills at all. MFLs are declining in state schools. So if the recruiters can't get the graduates equipped to work in global markets in their UK schemes then yes they will recruit the graduates from overseas who speak the languages and even more importantly understand the cultures of their markets. I am often deeply ashamed of the way UK businesses operate in overseas markets, it is a naivety about the levels of cultural and other complexities that I think underpins this "Britain will be great again" rhetoric. Only if it realises it has to up and changes it's game to play on the global field. Narrow minded ly closing it's border to the talents and skills it needs bar 10000 is not the mark of a global player.

[Valentine2]

muddlemuse
Someone more informed might come along. But my work is in a tech field. We really can use as many intelligent minds around here as we could get. The majority of the work in our team was generated by non Britons who worked extremely hard and majority were EU. There is a strong need of collaboration across this region as science is an expensive business. We had to do a lot of collaborative work around London because lots of instruments/technology was available somewhere and we couldn't buy it ourselves so we bought time in the labs where those things were available. That was the scale of London. No imagine it on the scale of EU. There is a lot of great science going on in the region and a lot of scientists are gutted. Instead of joining forces, if we create hurdles like BREXIT is likely to create and is already doing (I will try and dig a reference for you in a bit), how do you expect us to compete with USA, China and other parts of the world who are going so fast because of so many reasons. Look at it this way: I need ten people to work in my team. If I try and hire them from uk only, there will still be a huge number of more skilled people around the region called EU. I will miss them from the team and loose a lot of efficiency. Our population and skill sets are simply not enough right now. My ex advisor used to complain a lot that he cannot bring an extremely competent post doc from China/India/Asia due to the rules changing to British jobs for Britsh people first. If you take the EU workers off of his team, there simply won't be any team left after that.
That's the pace of the today's science. Experiments don't wait for visa approvals. Someone else will do them elsewhere and get the patent. If BREXIT goes ahead, I don't think there will be enough money for me to get a good job here and I will have to leave to survive in my field. I will take my patents with me that are in the pipe line. Apply that to a lot of other people who will leave, not to mention my very pissed off EU colleagues.
I think in this age, we need to rise beyond nationalism and be open. I am not against moving abroad. I am not bitter or angry for myself mainly. I will survive elsewhere. I will make new friends and a new life. I am worried that the regions who voted just to show the middle finger to the elite are the ones that will suffer most.
Hang on. I will just dig that reference for you.

[Valentine2]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-36835566

This is the most recent one I have. And this is BEFORE we have actually left or have even begun the plans to leave. Imagine what happens afterwards? We need at least three decades worth of planning and large scale investment into education right from the primary schools to the universities to even begin to think of surviving this impact and surviving the competition with USA/China/India etc etc.
See, if we stay in EU, everyone benefits because you are simply redefining the borders for science. You are including ALL the EU talent into this. That is the way forward.

[whatwouldrondo]

I might add that the commitment to diversity, gender, race and other diversity eg people with neurological differences such as autistic traits is not just liberal niceties. It has been absolutely demonstrated that it improves the effectiveness of an organisation, to have different perspectives and ways of thinking.

[Nightofthetentacle]

Muse I have a work deadline but v quickly, it is partly because the world tends to have hubs for specific specialities - Paris/NY/Milan/London for fashion, Aberdeen/Houston for oil, Frankfurt/NY/Paris/HK for financial services, SF/London/Berlin/Cambridge/Tel Aviv for tech and so on. Not an exhaustive list! The UK has a number of these hubs and relies on immigration to be able to get a sufficient concentration of skilled people in one place. A lot of people I studied with are now in financial services for instance, which means they are not in tech, medicine or public service and so someone else needs to filled that skilled worker gap. I think it also really benefits people to be able to go and work in another culture, at least for a while, as it discourages groupthink and allows greater cultural understanding and all sorts of other good stuff.

There may be a model for a single country skilling its own workforce and not relying on skilled immigration, but I can't think of one and have not seen any proposal for how you would do that. Possibly lighthearted - North Korea springs to mind as one that has tried it, out of some necessity.

[Valentine2]

I hope this doesn't out me. I did my work on the basis of a funding that the fuckwit Tories thought was not worth keeping anymore. So that's gone now.

[larrygrylls]

Valentine,

It is correct. I already checked it. Of course we only deposit fat when we eat excess energy, otherwise it is expended on moving, thermogenesis, repair etc.

We overeat hugely, as a nation and waste a lot of food.

[Valentine2]

larry
You are talking about body fat? I am talking about food. We eat food. We need to import it. You don't get those calories from "eating" 1 pound of fat. You get a very upset stomach only.
Glycogen is the storage form of glucose if we eat enough of glucose. We need glucose in different forms to get energy from food. Glycogen is a part of that but not all.
I am not sure how much percentage of the food requirement of UK currently goes into overeating. You have some data? A plan to work on?

[larrygrylls]

Valentine,

I have already stated all that you said. I never suggested we eat fat. I stated that you could calculate the amount of overeating by the excess weight over the population.

I have also explained that we are close to100%self sufficient as is, if you used all our arable land forgo of production.

Can you please explain why we ought to be self sufficient in food? Are you fearing a blockade or major war?

[Kaija]

Climate change alone means that the stability of food supply that we have enjoyed in recent years is unlikely to continue for long, never mind war - although it hardly looks as though we are heading towards peaceful times right now.

[bkgirl]

BegalCat Mum agree the earth is the single biggest issue.

[Kaija]

BengalCat I am truly amazed that you envisage any uk government in the near future taking climate change more seriously than the eu. We have just erased the Department for Climate Change for heaven's sake

[Kaija]

And good luck with getting the Green Party into power at the next election.

[Nightofthetentacle]

Thanks bengalcatmum. I would agree that millenials now have more problems than a trade bloc.

I guess I'm still looking for real, practical solutions to the problems I, my business, and the whole UK now faces. My work is stressful, tiring and full of problems that we as a business need to solve, often quickly, often without having much experience (we had fun with IT failures this week, for instance). If no-one - and it really seems to be no-one - can assure us that we are still likely to be able to find skilled workers, we will still be able to source funding, we will still be able to site our business here, then it leaves us with some stark choices and way more challenges than I signed up for when I gave up my job to do this.

I recognise that lots of people lived with uncertainty pre 24th June, but this kind of uncertainty stifles business confidence, and that doesn't just affect me and my merry band. For sure: great businesses can come from uncertain times, and severe recessions, but they can also take their talent and time and tax revenues elsewhere.

If you are prepared for 50 years of instability, can you understand that is horrifying to someone who hasn't asked for this? And that we need to understand what the intention is for that period - what will we do to make sure we are in a better position?

Positivity, hope, and assuming someone else will sort out the detail really doesn't cut it.

[Nightofthetentacle]

And in case you think I'm jumping on you, I am angry with this whole thing, but I really want Leave voters to develop an idea of their concrete and achievable positive outcomes from Brexit.

We are likely to be offered a choice on Brexit at some point in the next 5 years, and that choice will involve sacrifice of something: financial services passporting, enterprise funding, corporation tax revenues, immigration controls, the Union, leaving the EU. I have a good idea of what I would be prepared to sacrifice, but I get the impression that most Leave voters don't really have a wish list, or have thrown me under a bus for the sake of sovereignty aren't really engaged with the practical implications of their vote.

[UnderTheGreenwoodTree]

For action and legislation against climate change, we should have stuck with the EU.

I whole-heartedly agree that action and legislation is needed - but to name a few climate change deniers: Farage, Trump, Johnson, Gove, possibly Leadsom. All campaigned for Leave.

Friends of the Earth campaigned for remaining.

[SalemsLott]

It's intersting you mention the environment Bengal seeing as it is (shortly to be was) EU directives that protect us from frackers, so they don't contaminate our water supply and cause environmental damage etc. The Tories are very keen on fracking and companies lining up to get the contracts will be cock-a-hoop now they won't be shackled with these directives.
Hey ho, never mind hey.

[Kaija]

Yes. I'm afraid it takes a significant dose of delusion to imagine that Andrea "is climate change real" Leadsom is going to be doing much to address these issues.