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Brexit

Westminstenders Contines. Boris outmaneovered everyone?! Now War and Peace?

978 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/07/2016 22:31

THE BREXIT FALLOUT CONTINUES - THREAD TEN

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This set of threads started out asking if Boris had been outmanoeuvred by Cameron handing him a poison chalice. Fate made it seem as if Boris lost the battle but May has confounded everyone and handed him a second chance. Or so it might seem.

May now has a new Cabinet after a sweeping cull of Cameron's lot. It is more right wing than in a generation. A number of appointments have raised eyebrows. There are plenty of poison chalices and plenty of Brexiteers. Will this create peace in the Tory ranks? Or is it just the calm before the storm

Labour are tearing themselves apart what now seems to be all out civil war. Talk of gerrymandering, violence, disenfranchisement, deselection and intimidation are rife. The seems to be no end in sight, and no prospect of a solution apparent. The question perhaps seems to be when and how, rather than if the party will split, and who will retain the name and party funds.

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So the sad face of British politics in the last two days can be summed up in a single image. Boris and a brick.

Depressed?

I think we have a while to go yet before we hit the bottom.

Excuse me with the intros as I'm starting to struggle to keep up with things myself

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2684990-The-Westminster-Hunger-Games-Contines-May-Day-May-Day Previous Thread Nine

Westminstenders Contines. Boris outmaneovered everyone?! Now War and Peace?
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Motheroffourdragons · 15/07/2016 23:34

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Chalalala · 15/07/2016 23:35

Mother the posters on these threads are aware, i'm not so sure about the country as a whole. But yes maybe the referendum was a wake-up call

On Turkey, I think no one has any idea and everyone is waiting for the dust to settle to see the lay of the land...

BigChocFrenzy · 15/07/2016 23:35

We've only got the EU elections to consider wrt PR, since English Nationalist UKIP never made headway in Scotland:
UKIP soon built up their vote in EU elections until they bloody WON in 2014.

I know they maximise their vote, as it is EU.
However, under PR they might well grow to comparable size with Tory & Labour - racism, ignorance, scapegoating work so well for them
Remember, Arron Banks wants to remake them. He has the funds to equal the other 2 parties and he used scarily effective US techniques in the referendum.

Motheroffourdragons · 15/07/2016 23:36

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tiggytape · 15/07/2016 23:36

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Motheroffourdragons · 15/07/2016 23:37

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tiggytape · 15/07/2016 23:44

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tiggytape · 15/07/2016 23:46

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BigChocFrenzy · 15/07/2016 23:46

FTPT tends to reduce the votes for parties that won't get in.
Those who are angry stay home in GEs

That's why the referendum surprised everyone (to be fair to Cameron) - people who usually didn't vote came out because a protest could actually make a difference.

I expect this would happen too under PR in England, because there are a lot of angry disadvantaged people, who said they just wanted to wreck the "liberal multiculturals" (posts like that even on Mumsnet)

Also, there is a substantial minority at all income levels, who are just racist and would vote for a party that promised to expel immigrants, especially black & brown ones.
We've seen the spike in racist abuse when they think their views have been validated by voters.

thecatfromjapan · 15/07/2016 23:47

My earlier post was in response to outline of possible r-wing results of FPTP.
I sometimes feel I just don't know the UK. I live in a place that just isn't like this other (majority) UK.
It's bizarre.

Motheroffourdragons · 15/07/2016 23:50

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Motheroffourdragons · 15/07/2016 23:52

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thecatfromjapan · 15/07/2016 23:53

Sad Don't know what to say, Tiggy and BigChoc. I think you 're right. I worry.

Peregrina · 15/07/2016 23:53

I remember 8 years ago thinking that UKIP was something of a waning force, because under Labour quite a lot of good things were happening - Sure start centres, more money for schools, school rebuilding programmes are all ones which spring to mind. I think there are some hard core racists, but a lot of people aren't, but just tend to follow the crowd or keep their head down because they don't know what to do.

SwedishEdith · 15/07/2016 23:54

How so, Swedish? Feeling slow and stupid at the speed of all the developments in the world just now

peregrina said it clearer than me. Problem is, we just don't know how it would pan out. Extremists scare me but if they speak to you, you won't think they're extreme = even more scary.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/07/2016 00:26

As I said before, I'd already planned to continue working in Germany after Brexit because of economic concerns.
However, it is the racism spike that made me emigrate permanently.
It made me disgusted with England.
I experienced repeated racial abuse as a child in the 1960s and I'm not taking that crap again.

I agree, tiggy People naturally are worried about the rise in terrorism, because of the horrible slaughter.
However, IS won't be elected in any Western country, whereas far right parties have made significant advances in Europe, helped by PR.

The far-right in the UK supported Loathsome, tried to take over the Tory Party.
They are also targetting Labour voters.
IS can't do that.

The far right are moving the Overton window wrt immigration, multiculturalism, tolerance
Look at how it immediately became mainstream that EU immigration must be stopped, as soon as Leave won - but it wasn't in the referendum question.

We should be tackling the obscene inequality that really causes the social problems, not letting communities fight over scraps left by the rich.
But Labour have abandoned winning power and left a dangerous vacuum for Ukip to fill

MrsLupo · 16/07/2016 00:32

Hi, I'm not really keeping up with these threads anymore, but I gather people are wanting to know more about the origins of Momentum.

This article may be of interest. It's a bit long but a very interesting read.

Re Turkey, I have a friend who lives on the Asian side of Istanbul and things sound hairy. She was able to be in touch via social media at first but has been quiet for an hour or so now. She has small children. Sad If I hear anything more of general interest, I'll post it.

HesterThrale · 16/07/2016 00:46

And this is very interesting light listening about the mysterious Jon Lansman:
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03yxqt8

OlennasWimple · 16/07/2016 02:15

The reshuffle continues...

OlennasWimple · 16/07/2016 02:17

Two Johnsons in government - anyone know the last time brothers were both ministers??

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2016 04:48

These truly are dark times.

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Peregrina · 16/07/2016 07:37

It's beginning to sound as though the Nice attack wasn't terrorism as such, but more the work of a loner, who happened to be Muslim. In a way, it reminded me of the Dunblane massacres. This doesn't mean it isn't awful, just that we must be careful not to say Muslim crime=terrorism, particularly in the current febrile times where racism is being stirred up.

It looks as though the Turkish coup has been crushed. Whatever happens this means a disturbing state of instability in Turkey.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2016 08:06

Hiring 475 new overseas negotiators will take more than good luck, writes Miriam González Durántez That's Clegg's wife to most of us uneducated folks

The Brexit camp claims breezily that a Britain “unshackled” from Brussels will have no trouble maintaining access to the intricate network of trade agreements to which, as an EU member state, it is now party. As one of the very few people living in this country who has been an international trade negotiator, I disagree. Since Whitehall presently lacks the necessary know-how, renegotiating those deals any time soon after a Leave vote will be nigh impossible.

Because the European Commission has taken the lead in trade negotiations since the 1970s, the UK simply does not have people with the right technical knowledge. When I was a negotiator at the commission in the late 1990s, handling everything from telecoms to transport, officials from the UK and other member states would sit behind commission negotiators as deals were thrashed out. They were known back then as the “mother-in-law committee”, able to comment but not themselves negotiating — allowing negotiators to speak with the clout of the world’s largest trading bloc and member states to know exactly what is going on.

The outcome is that the UK benefits from 80 or so EU trade bilateral and regional agreements, either already in force or being formalised. Negotiations are under way, too, with more than 15 countries, from the US to Brazil and Japan. The agreements provide EU companies with access to these countries’ markets on more favourable terms than those secured by World Trade Organisation membership. They cover myriad provisions, from origin denominations to phytosanitary rule — all carefully crafted to ensure UK companies face as few obstacles as possible.

It is a long process: given that trade agreements have grown increasingly sophisticated, concluding negotiations in five years is a real achievement. Typically about 20 commission negotiators backed by 25-40 technical experts are involved. That may sound a lot but EU negotiators are known for their quality and manage with fewer people than most nations or trading blocs.

If the UK leaves the EU, the government will need to renegotiate these agreements for itself. Non-EU countries have given UK companies access to their markets in exchange for their companies having access to the 500m customers in the EU. Since the UK market on offer after a Brexit will be only 67m consumers, it is only natural that those nations will want to renegotiate; Brexit would represent a breach of contract.

In addition, the government will need to play catch-up on the negotiations under way between the EU and countries such as the US, India or Brazil. Even if all those countries agree to start from the basis of the current texts rather than from scratch, the UK will need about 500 negotiators working intensely for a decade at least.

The only UK officials with the skills to negotiate trade deals at present are with the commission itself. Even if we repatriated them all, we would struggle to put together a team of more than 25 people with the practical experience needed. Hiring (and then co-ordinating) 475 negotiators of other nationalities will require more than good luck.

The UK would also need politicians who understand how trade talks work so that sticking points can be resolved at a higher level when needed. As far as I know, no member of the government has led any international trade negotiations. The fact that Michael Gove, the justice secretary, widely considered one of the brightest of the Brexit camp, thinks the relationship between the EU and the UK can mirror the one between the EU and Albania demonstrates the enormity of the challenge.

Business people are often shocked to hear all this would be needed, not to im­prove market access conditions for UK companies, but simply to keep things as they are. No wonder they find it hard to understand why the government is exposing the country to such risk.

The writer is a partner, and co-chair of the international trade and government regulation practice, at Dechert, a law firm.

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howabout · 16/07/2016 08:19

First sign of post Brexit HoC. MPs pushing for UK action on VW emissions scandal. Apparantly always possible inside the EU but in common with many other areas the UK has tended to demur to EU regulation in the past (unlike other EU countries).

Assume Gatwick will now be the airport choice, especially given SK prefers this?

On NS seeking to make sure Scotland is part of the UK negotiation is a significant climbdown for her. This was always the Westminster position, but she had previously been seeking to deal bilaterally with the EU.

HoL debate on Chilcot yesterday was very instructive on the conduct of foreign affairs.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2016 08:20

Resolution Foundation (Analysis and action on living standards)
have published a report called 'Why did we vote to leave? What an analysis of place can tell us about Brexit'

www.resolutionfoundation.org/media/blog/why-did-we-vote-to-leave-what-an-analysis-of-place-can-tell-us-about-brexit/
Summary of the report
www.resolutionfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Brexit-vote-v3.pdf
Full report

Key findings
•Evidence that the geographical distribution of living standards influenced the referendum vote, with employment having a significant effect
•But recent changes in pay appear not to have had a significant effect, implying that living standard issues are long-established
•Demographics also matter, with older areas voting to leave and areas with lots of students being more likely to vote remain
•Cultural and geographical factors play a key role, represented by the importance of feelings of cohesion within the local area, and by the tendency for different regions to vote differently even after controlling for all other factors
•The level of migration doesn’t seem to matter but the pace of change over the past decade or so does
•The strength of the correlation with higher qualification levels in an area is particularly telling, with this variable closely associated with both economic and wider cultural factors

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