Should we guarantee the rights of eu citzens to remain unilaterally

[ReallyTired]

I think we should. They came here with the belief that they could live here.

I suppose the argument is that Spain and France may not show compassion to British citizens who have emigrated. Certainly Spain may well be tempted to use it as leverage to gain sovernity of Gibraltar. I think the chances of the French being vindictive is less.

If Scotland leaves the uk and joins the EU could there be an arrangement where ex pats become Scottish citizens? (Even if they are 100% English or Welsh) in the event of British citizens being sent back?

[citroenpresse]

errr, OK MangoMoon what about leave campaign leaders! e.g. www.theguardian.com/business/2016/mar/08/mark-carney-bank-of-england-brussels-eu-deal-supports-financial-stability

Carney said it was his 'duty' to speak out. Labelling it as Project Fear (BoJo, Gove et al), belittles voters. I want to hear from experts like Carney not pond life like Farage!

[citroenpresse]

Again, EnthusiasmDisabled, you are not talking about 'experts' but RBS. And bankers.

[EnthusiasmDisturbed]

You listened and you made your choice

Other people felt he wasn't talking to them

[citroenpresse]

Absolutely fine. But I don't believe someone like Jacob-Rees Mogg is doing the public a great service by trying to suggest Carney shouldn't be speaking at all because it is too 'political'. You think if Carney had come out and said, BREXIT: no probs. Everything will be just fine, they would have said that was 'too political?'

[EnthusiasmDisturbed]

what background do you think Mark Carney has ?

Of course they have people working for them that study the financial market, research the financial market they are not all making investment decisions

[EnthusiasmDisturbed]

I never said he shouldn't speak out

I responded to the All leavers .....

[MangoMoon]

To be fair to Jacob Rees-Mogg, he was talking sense on EU citizens currently being left in limbo in Britain the other day.

He said it wasn't humane & that their needed to be clarity sooner rather than later (paraphrasing, but certain he used the words 'not humane').
He also said that there needs to be a clear cut off date & that that should be a date after the referendum result, not retrospective.

[MangoMoon]

*there

[SpidersFromMars]

fullfact.org/europe/uk-leaving-eu-immigration/

and

fullfact.org/europe/uk-leaving-eu-immigration-economy/

are as much certainty as we have at the moment.

[chicaguapa]

Given that it was the Brexiters that were most trenchant in their opposition to ID cards, remainers can savour the irony that it was Brexit which finally forced the UK to accept them.

And that it was Theresa May who scrapped them. I still have the last one which says it's valid for 10 years. I'd support bringing them back but I'm not paying for another one. I'd want a free one.

[citroenpresse]

I think we might be talking at cross purposes here re experts…
re Jacob Rees-Mogg, Gisela Stuart (chief leaver) is one of the signatures to a letter that says the position of EU citizens in the UK should be guaranteed. In the case of Stuart (who is my mum's MP) I find it particularly hypocritical. They had no inkling that they could actually win (probably because they didn't listen to enough experts).

[SnowBells]

Mango Do you have Twitter? Most of the people I follow are Remainers, but when I look up a politics show I'm watching, for example, and there may be an expert there... Literally thousands of Leave voters start tweeting of scaremongering and the BBC being biased, etc.

The BBC isn't biased, by the way. It said more negative things about the EU than it did about Assad...

[lljkk]

Farage & Boris dissed "experts" too. Leadsom (on MN) said that expert economists were wrong, that Brexit wouldn't be anywhere as tough on UK and international economy as (for instance) crashing out of the ERM had been.

In meantime, small town papers in Utah are running features on how Brexit might impact their community. I wonder how many such articles they ran about the UK leaving the ERM.

[angelos02]

If you are a massive net contributor, of course you have nothing to worry about. No children in state education, no reliance on nhs. Stop stating the obvious

[APlaceOnTheCouch]

Why is Gisela Stuart hypocritical? She never said EU citizens would have to leave. Signing a letter saying that their position should be guaranteed is perfectly in keeping with her stance.

I would hope if the EU 'nullify the argument of bargaining chips' then the UK would give assurances that EU citizens can stay.

To be clear, I think that assurance should have been given by all sides and ratified in parliament before the referendum took place. I don't agree with the government using it as a bargaining chip, I'm just observing that is what they're doing.

[lljkk]

...Gisela Stuart said only voters mattered, not experts. I wonder whose advice she'll take now. (sigh)

[Lweji]

Yes, those voters who googled EU the day after.
Having said that, they can't be worse than Boris or Farage would have been.

[angelos02]

I am reckoning on a.few million people not making the grade. I even bet UK taxpayers have to pay for the air fare

[BertrandRussell]

My brother is an Australian Citizen with indefinite leave to remain in the UK. His wife and two children are Spanish-(children born in Spain). They have lived and he has worked and paid tax in the UK for 13 years. His dd is at Cambridge, his son in year 11. They have no home or work in Spain. What do the "on the boat" brigade think should happen to them?

[LazyJournalistsQuoteMN]

Considering several people from UK have applied for other Countries Passports (Ireland alone has had a massive influx of passport applications from UK since Brexit) to maintain their ability to travel, work and live in the EU. How many Expats have built their lives in EU. If Britain send 'home' EU citizens, The EU might send Ex Brits 'home' too. I think they will need to consider their policies carefully. Spain have said if Britain leave the EU, they're (Spain) planning on taking back Gibraltar. No one can afford to secure and patrol the 200 roads linking NI to ROI. Scotland might go Independent and remain in EU, then those borders would pose a similar situation to NI. It's going to be messy whatever happens and that's before there's any trade agreement made.

[crossroads3]

am reckoning on a few million people not making the grade. I even bet UK taxpayers have to pay for the air fare

wind up

[lljkk]

@Bertrand: I imagine they will have to apply for ILR in UK an probably will qualify if they pay ££££.

[Threepineapples]

Haven't read full thread but yes I believe we absolutely should. I don't really understand what relevance it has to negotiation (perhaps this has been covered?). If we don't agree on free movement we will have to negotiate future arrangements separately with each country, won't we?

[EverythingWillBeFine]

There will be plenty of people in that boat Bertrand.

Mango I agree with the no humane.
There is a big difference between being an 'immigrant' as in having to fill plenty of paperwork to be able to go and live in another coutnry, knowing you might not be able to stay forever etc etc and moving from from EU contry to another.
I don't consider myself an 'immigrant' here. I didn't have to fill any paperwork. Me coming to the UK and work was something I was entitled to do in the same way that people from NI can come to England to work and live. For me, the two situations are the same, even if the language is different.
So yes, in some ways, the not knowing is 'inhumane'.

I do think that it should make people think though. If dealing with EU citizens living in the UK is hard work, how would it be to deal with Scotland or NI leave the UK? How would you know if you are scottish or english for example?
Maybe a bit of wake up call to as to the consequence of leaving the EU completely....

[angelos02]

What do you think 17 million people voted for? Just to piss about & tinker at the edges? They want massive change