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Brexit

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Should we guarantee the rights of eu citzens to remain unilaterally

678 replies

ReallyTired · 06/07/2016 10:58

I think we should. They came here with the belief that they could live here.

I suppose the argument is that Spain and France may not show compassion to British citizens who have emigrated. Certainly Spain may well be tempted to use it as leverage to gain sovernity of Gibraltar. I think the chances of the French being vindictive is less.

If Scotland leaves the uk and joins the EU could there be an arrangement where ex pats become Scottish citizens? (Even if they are 100% English or Welsh) in the event of British citizens being sent back?

OP posts:
Aerfen · 15/07/2016 00:43

Tryingtosaveup

Very good post, and you are quite right, its not all about the economy, iuuts about community and identity!

Your comments about London are tragically correct now, but its not so long ago London too was full of Londoners, real indigenous Londoners, who spoke with rela London accents, not the so called 'inner city' immigrant accent which now fills London schools, beneath the affluent icing of middle class people, were strong and vibrant communities of workign class Londoners, who used to do all the jobs which kept the capital going. That is now destroyed, some moved upwards (socially) many moved away (geographically) mostly driven to, and small numbers who have remained behind in the Brave New London surrounded by strangers, transient uprooted money seeking interlopers , the societies they knew not so long ago fragmented, shrinking and dying. Is this "progress" or destruction?

Aerfen · 15/07/2016 00:47

SnowBells
Welcome to the Twilight zone, Birdandsparrow.
OR shall we call it "Brave New Britain"?

Hmmm perhaps you'd prefer "Eurasia"?Confused

TheElementsSong · 15/07/2016 06:54

Hmmm perhaps you'd prefer "Eurasia"?

Your true colours are showing.

SnowBells · 15/07/2016 07:35

Hmmm perhaps you'd prefer "Eurasia"?

Yes, actually. Why not?! A million times better than what the UK has become.

Elements

The colours have come out a long time ago. The silver lining is that people like Tryingtosave and Aerfen will die out soon enough.

Lweji · 15/07/2016 08:08

Let's educate & provide free healthcare for children of parents that don't even earn enough to pay enough tax to fund it.
You clearly have no concept of how taxes work or what countries give children free education for.
Would you say to EU immigrants that they don't use the NHS or free schools that they shouldn't pay taxes or fund British people who don't pay enough taxes to support their own health care or children's education?
Children's education is an investment on future workers.
Without those children the "native" "pure" accent population decreases and you'll have to work till you're 100 to afford retirement.

As for the London best, Aerfen is also excluding anyone else in the UK from moving to London. At least she's fair and consistent.

People, don't ever leave where you are borne and don't think of moving social circles either.
I'm surprised that Aerfen isn't speaking Shakespeare's English.

smallfox2002 · 15/07/2016 08:23

"Hmmm perhaps you'd prefer "Eurasia"?"

Preferable to Airstrip 1.

Aerfen · 15/07/2016 12:49

TheElementsSong
Hmmm perhaps you'd prefer "Eurasia"?
Your true colours are showing.

Failure to pick up the literary reference on your part there!

smallfox2002
"Hmmm perhaps you'd prefer "Eurasia"?
Preferable to Airstrip 1.

The two are not incompatible.

Aerfen · 15/07/2016 12:57

Lweji
As for the London best, Aerfen is also excluding anyone else in the UK from moving to London. At least she's fair and consistent. People, don't ever leave where you are borne and don't think of moving social circles either.
Slippery slope argument.
No I am not suggesting an internal passport system within the nation, as the former USSR had.

I'm surprised that Aerfen isn't speaking Shakespeare's English.
Nah Chaucers! Wink

Lweji · 15/07/2016 13:15

But you do realise that large cities will never stay the same or have a strong exclusively local population due to internal migration within the country anyway.
Immigration is just another factor, and can't be exclusively blamed.

SnowBells · 15/07/2016 13:27

I'm surprised that Aerfen isn't speaking Shakespeare's English.

Nah Chaucers!

What, Aerfen... you speak with an accent now known as "American"?

(Imagines redneck American logging onto Mumsnet... Grin)

American English is closer to Chaucer's English than British English...

Threepineapples · 15/07/2016 13:36

Indigenous Londoners

I really have heard it all now Grin

Masses of people moved to London in the 19th century inc several branches of my family - from Cornwall, Lancashire, Cambridgeshire, Somerset

My grandfather was a cockney, as in born within the sound of bow bells, but his family came from central England

What nonsense on this thread

smallfox2002 · 15/07/2016 13:38

"No I am not suggesting an internal passport system within the nation, as the former USSR had."

If that doesn't demonstrate that we are in tin foil hat territory then I don't know what does.

SnowBells · 15/07/2016 14:29

I think this recent NY Times article is quite well-suited for this thread:

England's Last Gasp of Empire

MangoMoon · 15/07/2016 14:59

The Empire lives on in Britain though.

Read a few interesting things recently about how the ruling classes switched their view of 'Empire' to within our own borders years ago.

They rule over & exert control over the different classes within the uk as they once did to the colonies.

LurkingHusband · 15/07/2016 15:07

The Empire lives on in Britain though.

Read a few interesting things recently about how the ruling classes switched their view of 'Empire' to within our own borders years ago.

They rule over & exert control over the different classes within the uk as they once did to the colonies.

This a fact I never tire of repeating since I found it out :

Basically, since 1066, of the land granted to nobles by William the Conqueror; most of Britain remains in the hands of the descendants of those early Norman conquerors.

www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2014/10/last-1000-years-families-owned-england/

Which makes the English social system the envy of the world. It has withstood plague, famine, fire, civil war(s), insurrection, repeated attempts at invasion the rise and fall of an Empire, 2 world wars, and yet delivered fuck all in the way of social mobility. It's the Japanese Knotwood of caste systems.

smallfox2002 · 15/07/2016 15:07

The Empire does not "live on" .

angelos02 · 15/07/2016 15:10

I was at the dentist today. She was eastern European. She is the type of person we are happy to have stay. But even then, under a 5 year visa that is up for review.

angelos02 · 15/07/2016 15:15

Finally, might people be getting this?

smallfox2002 · 15/07/2016 15:19

What that you're a xenophobe? Think its pretty obvious.

Werkz · 15/07/2016 15:47

What do you think makes you entitled to be in England?!? What makes you better?? Because a few centuries ago, your ancestors rocked up its shores on a boat?!? What have you achieved in your life?

Probably because she is a British citizen under the British Nationality Act of 1982?

Or would you like to strip her of her citizenship because she hasn't achieved enough in her life?

There are some real misunderstandings about nationality, sovereignty and the nature of authority, power and governance on this thread.

The above comment is really quite disgraceful.

SnowBells · 15/07/2016 16:51

Well, Werkz - if you haven't kept up, some people on this thread have insinuated that they are indigenous and sort of "pure" Brits and proud of it, and because of it, they're entitled to more.

From my understanding, people who are over proud about their origins often haven't done much to be proud of themselves!! Why would you be proud about your freakin' breed!?!

nosuchnumber · 15/07/2016 17:18

Werkz, there have been many other disgraceful comments on this thread as well. To just be picking up on this one as disgraceful, means you probably haven't read the whole thread.

FWIW. My boys are both British as they were born to settled parents, however both Dh and I are EU citizens so we are drains and leeches according to some posters on this thread. Before this thread the only drains in our household I was aware of were in my kitchen...

I have lived in this country for nearly 20 years and paid my taxes and contributed to my local community. It hurts to have my commitment to this country questioned, my contributions trivialized and being called all sorts of nasty, even if this is done by a small minority.

And I am not the only one who's hurt. And some people who hurt lash out. Not an excuse for nasty replies I know but at least an explanation.

AdultingIsNotWhatIExpected · 15/07/2016 17:19

I was at the dentist today. She was eastern European. She is the type of person we are happy to have stay. But even then, under a 5 year visa that is up for review

And you think your skilled dentist would want to stay and build a career and life here under that kind of uncertainty?

SnowBells · 15/07/2016 18:45

My mum said a doctor on TV was told by an elderly patient he was tending to that she "voted to get the likes of him out". He told her that his parents were from Pakistan, but that he was born in the UK. He tended to her regardless.

I wouldn't have been so nice.

I'd probably have told her to go to another practice, and deep inside, I'd just be thinking, "Die, woman. Do everyone a favour and just die."

Werkz · 15/07/2016 22:17

snowbells

From my understanding, people who are over proud about their origins often haven't done much to be proud of themselves!! Why would you be proud about your freakin' breed!?!

As I have said on another thread, my grandfather would not give up his foreign passport for thirty years. Even though he finally applied for a British passport after a disaster at the British border after a holiday to Malta, he always saw himself as his nationality, not a Brit.

His nationality and origins were incredibly important to him. He had fought for his country, and his father had died for for its unsuccessful liberation. He was proud to be a son of his country; it was a huge part of his identity and its history had carved his life and his personality and perspective into the shape it was, and I have inherited quite a lot of that outlook. When he died, we carried his coffin into the church covered in the flag of his country; it is what he wanted, even though he hadn't lived there for sixty years.

And because of that, I understand why people are proud of their origins. I am proud to have a grandfather who fought in horrendous conditions for the freedom of his country. I am proud to have a great grandfather that even when he was being told to kneel to be shot in the back of the head in a dark cellar still had the bollocks to proclaim freedom for his country.

But, equally, I am aware that there are legal realities if you wish to live permanently in another state. One day, that "holiday to Malta" may happen. Okay, it might not be a holiday, it will probably have nothing to do with Malta, but the same situation may arise in some way.

At the end of the day, citizenship denotes a vital legal bond between state and citizen. It is the relationship between individual and state; it's the declaration of state duty to an individual and state jurisdiction over and individual. You can see how important citizenship is by looking at how serious statelessness is (ie. no citizenship of anywhere) -- we had to create international treaties back in the 1950s just to give stateless people some basic rights.

I really don't like the idea that one should somehow "deserve" citizenship. For fear of invoking Godwin, I don't want to mention that a certain ideological movement in Germany did not believe some people deserved German citizenship, even though they had been born in the country and so had their ancestors going back generations.

And the question needs to be asked ... if we are talking about deserving, to live in England, am I? I am not a doctor or a nurse. I'm not an engineer. I gave up teaching and will never return to it. I can't build a house or purify water. If there was a zombie apocalypse, the only skills I can provide is cooking, cleaning, growing veg and a vast knowledge of historical political crises.

I guess because of my family background, nosuchnumber, I am very alert to issues of citizenship, rights, obligations, and how quickly those can change. You must always try to protect yourself because you cannot rely on others do that for you. You cannot rely on the goodwill of others.

Look at the advice constantly given to women on the relationships board: women who are living with partners with children in homes they don't own and are facing poverty if the relationship breaks down and posters say ... you have no rights because you are not married.

Citizenship is very similar. Without it, you are at the mercy of the whims people you cannot even vote for.