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Brexit

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Exactly one week on - happy 'leavers' how are we all feeling?

1001 replies

Surferjet · 01/07/2016 07:38

Wow what a week Grin
I'm still walking on air & soooooo happy we're leaving, just want A50 triggered ASAP!

OP posts:
babybythesea · 01/07/2016 17:06

I'm only up to page 6 and I have to go and clean the bathroom. Always fun. But I wanted to just comment on the idea that it's become about class. Maybe it has.
For me, it has become about respecting experts, something we don't seem to do.
We've reached a point of 'everyone is as good as everyone else' which in broad terms, yes they are.
But in some cases, some people are better.
The oft-repeated example of the heart sugeon, for example. In some cases, his training, experience and education do make him the best man for the job. Like when surgery needs performing.
When a plane needs flying, I will trust the guy who has been trained to fly it, rather than assuming I know better and grabbing the controls.
When all the top economists in the world tell me that staying in the EU is better for the UK, I will believe them. Because I am not a top economist. I have some grasp of the issues but it is not a deep, detailed knowledge.
I will also believe all the major environmental charities when they say remaining is best, and I will trust the government advisors for agriculture I spoke to who said remaining would be far better. I may be able to marshall up some arguments against but ultimately, this is their area of expertise, not mine, and I will respect that.

The two leave voters I have spoken to are not interested in anything beyond the immigration issue. They are both lovely people, and not racist, but they are concerned that 'cities the size of Wolverhampton are being built and we are running out of space'. According to one. The other cannot see why the UK need deal with other countries at all. We should just be independent. We have been before. I'm not sure what era she's thinking of to be fair. Tudor times?
But neither of them have recognised that there may be a gap in their knowledge. Never mind not knowing things, they don't even realise there might be things they don't know that others do. They are utterly convinced in the right to vote, that their vote is as equal as anyone else's, and in some ways I agree, in that there are things we can vote on which everyone needs a say in, and everyone's vote should then be weighted equally.
But in this, when the consequences are so far-reaching and broad-ranging and multi-layered, I actually don't think everyone is equal.
I don't think we should have had a referendum at all. If you are going to do something this epic, it needed to be decided on by people who actually understand, properly, what they are talking about.

And as it happens, all the people I know who did the reading up, and research, all have degrees or have travelled widely. And they almost, not entirely, but almost, all, voted remain.
The two people I know who voted leave have never been to uni or travelled, in one case, never leaving the county.

I do wonder if there's a sort of correlation under it all, in as far as 'the people who like to know things, whatever their class, are more likely to go travelling to see them, or go to uni to learn about them, so are just by nature more likely to read up on something like this'.
You aren't interested in this sort of thing, you don't read up, you either don't know or aren't interested in what the experts have to say. And you make your choice based on a slogan.

Maybe sometimes it is ok to say that there are circumstances where we are not all equal. On that note, if you want the best home-made lemon curd ever, go round to my leave voting neighbour. I think you'll be hard pushed to top it. Just don't ask her economics advice.

MangoMoon · 01/07/2016 17:07

Please prove your unfounded accusation, not just vague 'you agreed with a poster that said people's lives will be improved as a result of controlled immigration, ergo you are racist'.

Caveat: in my agreement I also clarified that 'people' in this means 'all people'.

Helmetbymidnight · 01/07/2016 17:07

No one gives a toss?

If you're super- rich, yeah you won't give a toss- but anyone else?
The people of Sunderland rejected Nissan for 'freedom', the people of Wales rejected eu money for 'control'- and you think everyone else with their dwindling finances are going to step in and bail them out when the shit hits the fan?

babybythesea · 01/07/2016 17:10

I also want to know whether Leave voters feel they were lied to. As in, whether you believed it or not, do you believe that the vote was won by lies?r do you believe that everyone did their research and wasn't misled?
If you think some may have been misled, what do you think needs to happen now? Nothing, because your side won? Or do we need to hold people to account when they were so liberal with the truth?
Is it still democratic if it is founded on lies?

CaptainBrickbeard · 01/07/2016 17:10

baby that is exactly what I wanted to say. I applaud you for such a brilliant post. And I'll say that I have seen some other amazing, intelligent, articulate posts from Remainers this week. But nobody on the Leave side has managed to explain one single reason that they are right. This question should never, ever have come to a referendum.

user1467101855 · 01/07/2016 17:11

Its not at all vague, its very clear.

You said that peoples lives will be massively improved by getting a handle on immigration (at least someone else said it, and you defended and agreed with it). So, How is it that immigrants lives will be massively improved by a curb on immigration?

Either they will ,in which case please tell us,
or they won't ; and therefore by "the people whose lives will improve" are not immigrants, and you only mean non-immigrants whose lives will improve at the expense of immigrants.

It's one of these. Unless you want to concede that no-ones life will improve at all. That would solve the logic puzzle but invalidate your original point, and indeed your vote.

Still waiting.

BreakingDad77 · 01/07/2016 17:12

MrsJackAubrey, how do you think Murdoch will benefit from Leave?

Does this help?

Exactly one week on - happy 'leavers' how are we all feeling?
GlassBrexiteer · 01/07/2016 17:12

No one gives a toss

I meant that no one gives a toss that MrsJack is now eagerly awaiting the apocalypse which (in her view) is about to unleash it's vengeance on the 'stupid, poor, dispossessed and vulnerable LEAVE voters'

(I dont mean that no one gives a toss about the poor, dispossessed and vulnerable)

MangoMoon · 01/07/2016 17:14

User, I cannot see for the life of me how you have reached the point of:
'Mango is a racist'.

Please provide proof.

I am sick of defending myself against your unfounded accusations.

user1467101855 · 01/07/2016 17:16

I never actually called you a racist, you took that mantle on. I called out another poster on something and you started screaming about being called a racist. I just agreed afterwards, since you were so eager to take on the ahrge.

But seriously: How is it that immigrants lives will be massively improved by a curb on immigration?

MangoMoon · 01/07/2016 17:17

You're pissing in the wind I think Glass, just like I am.

The wilful misinterpretation, twisting of words & spin that have been utilised throughout this thread against Leave voters has been unbelievable.

user1467101855 · 01/07/2016 17:17

And did you not understand my post above where I laid it out for you in minute detail?

user1467101855 · 01/07/2016 17:17

How can we misinterpret you when you won't answer the simplest of questions?

BreakingDad77 · 01/07/2016 17:20

Is it still democratic if it is founded on lies?

These are my exact reasons for either nulling the vote or a second ref, but gets poo-pooed as being a whining loser/undemocratic etc That we just need to accept it and move on completely unchallenged.

Which makes me worry how susceptible we are to getting some terrible demagogue in power.

CaptainBrickbeard · 01/07/2016 17:20

baby, in terms of the lies, Leavers have acknowledged that Vote Leave lied about the NHS money. However, they think that's ok because apparently no one ever believed the claim anyway and it didn't influence anyone's decision to vote Hmm.

Helmetbymidnight · 01/07/2016 17:21

I don't think she is eagerly awaiting the apocalypse- I think she is probably devastated that she or someone she knows is losing their job because some others felt leaving the eu "will make Britain great in 20 years time."

The left ARE going to struggle with this. millions of people won't vote for tax rises now - why should they plug the gap that so many people self destructively created?

RebeccaMumsnet · 01/07/2016 17:22

Hi all,

Can we please stop the personal attacks.
We like to be a place where all kinds of discussions can take place and folks can have freedom of speech but we do ask folks to post within the Talk guidelines

Thank you

HelpfulChap · 01/07/2016 17:23

I am a Leaver and I have freely admitted that if, as I suspect, nothing actually changes, I would have abstained from voting.

I think financial markets are of the same opinion, given the post-Brexit equity rallies.

The UK 'could' end up with a strong hand in negotiations with the EU. The Czech Republic are also having an EU referendum but also asking if they want to stay in NATO which will swing it the Remain way.

Also, Austria are going to re-run the presidential vote in Sept which if the (very) right wing candidate wins could (according to the piece I read) prompt a ref in Italy in Oct.

I don't think it is in the EUs interest to 'punish' us and with 'soft' Remain May leading the Conservative Party it could well be that a few token gestures are thrown the Leavers way and the status quo virtually maintained.

In a nutshell, the whole thing will have been an omnishambles.

MangoMoon · 01/07/2016 17:26

I never actually called you a racist, you took that mantle on.

You said this directly to me:
you are everywhere, throwing out casual racism and then getting upset about it being pointed out.

I called out another poster on something and you started screaming about being called a racist.

No. You extrapolated that a poster said 'immigrants aren't people', she didn't say anything if the sort.
I explained that by 'people' I meant all people, you weren't happy with that.
I didn't scream about being called a racist at all, quite the contrary; I repeatedly asked you to stop calling me a racist across several posts because it is untrue & unfounded.

TheElementsSong · 01/07/2016 17:32

baby Loved your post, you articulated what I've been thinking beautifully. I've just been going around muttering "Dunning-Kruger effect, Dunning-Kruger effect 😫" over and over.

StopWhateverUDoing · 01/07/2016 17:40

BreakingDad77, thanks, got it :)

JudyCoolibar · 01/07/2016 17:42

Right, in all fairness to Mango, what she posted on the immigrant issue was "By immigration being controlled, one would hope that the 'people of the U.K.' will be better served; also, any further immigrants should surely be better served also."

The problem with that is that the question wasn't restricted to further immigrants. It referred also to current and past immigrants, who I doubt feel they are in any way better served by idiots telling them to go back home. And so far as future putative immigrants are concerned, it's difficult to understand how they will be better served by being prevented from immigrating, whether it's to work, join their families, or because they are homeless refugees.

Orangebandana · 01/07/2016 17:43

The Czech Republic are also having an EU referendum but also asking if they want to stay in NATO which will swing it the Remain way.

Are they? From what I read in one of my country's leading papers (and we are neighbours with the Czech Republic) 15 minutes ago, their president wants a referendum, but their prime minister has said there will be no such thing and that it is the Czech Republic's priority to remain in the EU.

SnowBells · 01/07/2016 17:44

RUPERT MURDOCH I so can't wait for that disgusting sack of a man to keel over. Seriously, man, just die!!!!

But I'm afraid he must have sold his soul to the devil.

GlassBrexiteer · 01/07/2016 17:48

nope MrsJack specifically posted that she 'is quite looking forward to the time when the pigeons come home to roost and the poor, dispossessed and vulnerable LEAVE voters can digest the consequences of their vote at their leisure'

MrsJack wants it all to turn to shit so that she can enjoy seeing the stupid leave voters suffer

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