Why I Voted to Leave the EU

[Asprilla11]

So I recently started a thread about the misconceptions many remain voters may have about why people voted leave. I argued that there were many reasons other than immigration and that the majority voted fully understanding what the outcome would mean.

On that thread and many more on MN the remain voters keep asking us WHY we voted and are annoyed when we don't answer in full, they forget that since the result SOME have acted in an aggressive and belittling manner towards us, so why would we feel engaged to reply? Many leave voters have had to spend time defending themselves because we have all been branded thick and racist. We are more than aware some racist people voted to leave in order to pursue their disgusting agenda, most leave voters don't want to be associated with those people and we condemn their stance.

I am willing to say my reasons why I voted leave, even if it means I am attacked for doing so.

EU Commissioners

They are not democratically elected (by EU Citizens) and the President has the final say on any candidate that a member state has put forward. Technically they are accountable to the European Parliament by the fact that the Parliament is able to force the entire Commission to resign through a vote of no confidence. However the Parliament has never done this, but have threatened to do it once. It also needs 2/3 of the Parliament to vote and agree on the reason for the no confidence vote. We can elect MEP's but they have little power over the commissioners.

The commissioners are paid nearly £200,000 per year (some more) and also get generous allowances, benefits and a very good pension. I do not believe the current commission deserve that level of pay, they simply have not earned it, I believe they put their own self interests above EU citizens and I believe they are morally and financially corrupt. If they were worth the salary then the amount would be fine, I just don't think they currently are.

EU Economy

There is very little growth and it is only going to get worse if the Eurozone fully collapses which I feel is a real possibility. Struggling EU nations such as Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy are in massive debt, suffering with austerity and massive youth unemployment. I don't believe many of the of the other EU nations care about this, as long as the wealth benefits their country then they will pay lip service to those who are less fortunate. I also believe a lot of the benefits of the EU economy and the trade it brings also benefits the wealthier members of society more than the poor, in all of the EU member states.

If the EU had showed they would reform and a new fairer commission was set up which looked at making deals fairer for all EU member states and also looked at immigration in depth (not necessarily changing it) then I would have voted remain without a second thought. However the commission proved what an arrogant bunch they are even before Cameron went to get his 'deal', they won't reform, they don't want to and they don't care who knows it.

UK Economy

The UK will be 6-8 billion pounds better off after no longer paying the EU membership fee, even after the grants we used to receive are taken in to account. However there were several studies that pointed out that the loss in trade will far outweigh the savings from leaving the EU and we will actually be worse off financially. I didn't doubt some of the facts in those studies and I could see how they came to their conclusions, however even those studies have to admit they can't say for certain because nobody knows how quickly we will get new trade agreements with EU member states and how favorably they will be. Additionally although EU membership did not prevent trade deals with the commonwealth and other countries, it did reduce the need and the imagination to. It is only when those deals are in place can you truly say leaving the EU has left us worse or better off. In the short-term we will be worse off, I knew that risk prior to voting.

As a Labour supporter and also someone who is very distrusting of the current Tory Government I can hand on heart easily say that not a single thing Farage, Gove, Johnson and Duncan Smith said I believed at face value. In fact I consider Gove as one of the worst Education ministers ever and IDS I hold responsible for the suicide of some disabled benefit claimants, such an odious man. So believe me the leave MP's definitely didn't impress or influence me!

I did my own research which I always do whenever the Government (any party) state things as 'facts'. I knew the £350 million claim would be wrong (which remain supporters kept shouting was lies) however I also knew the Governments claim that every household in the UK would be £4300 worse off was also wrong, but do you get the leave voters shouting lies? Both sides lied, that is a fact!

Since the crash in 2008 many, many people in the UK (not just the British) have not seen any improvement in their wages or living standards. They have borne the brunt of austerity more than the people who could afford to. The 5th biggest economy in the world and an economy that has recovered and grown still has not brought any benefits to the poor and working class. They didn't consider how leaving the EU would affect their ISA's, Savings, Stocks and Shares because they don't have any! They didn't think about if their child could go to Uni because they would never have been able to afford that anyway. The poor and working class in the UK and the EU don't care if they are a bit worse off for a few more years, they are sick of the wealth that is generated only benefiting the wealthy, this was their chance to be heard.

Immigration

I wasn't going to mention this as it did not play much of a part (if any) in my decision and I also feel like as a leave supporter I have to keep defending myself whenever the word immigration is mentioned, simply because the remain voters keep saying we are all racist.

But here goes.

I worked in the Civil Service from the age of 19 for 15 years. I worked with people of all ages, all religions, all nationalities, LGBT and disabled people too. I matured as an adult in this environment and it undoubtedly made my life richer. I was also a Union Rep and defended colleagues in disciplinary, poor performance/attendance, diversity and disabilities (covered by the Equality Act 2010) meetings and hearings , both british and non-british. Since I left I have kept in touch with former colleagues who are now lifelong friends, some are British, some aren't, it wasn't a factor in whether we became friends or not.

I only mention all of that simply because a lot of remain voters think we have no positive outlook on immigrants and we don't mix in a multi-cultural society. They also think we don't understand the positive impact on the economy migrants (EU and non-EU) have. But actually most leave voters do, immigrants pay far more in to the system than they take out in benefits, that's a long standing, well known fact. There are far more british people who falsely claim benefits compared to immigrants.

Unfortunately I will admit there are parts of society, some of which voted leave who don't understand these truths. Some through lack of education, some through lack of life experience with people of diverse backgrounds and some sadly who are racist. These are the people who already felt poor, cut-off and unheard. UKIP and other politicians preyed on those peoples fears and told them they could help fix their problems.

That is not however the majority of leave supporters, I truly believe that. Most leave supporters have had experiences like mine and we all have experienced nothing but positive things from working and living with immigrants, EU and non-EU.

If the EU could have done one thing with immigration then I wish it gave all EU member states the ability to put a temporary block or cap on EU migration. I say this for the simple fact that the UK and other countries don't have the housing, schools and hospitals to cope with the current UK (not british) population growth, we simply aren't building enough of anything. When you add over 300,000 immigrants to that population growth you start to see the strain it creates.

I think the UK can cope with immigration well above 200,000, when it has the infrastructure in place, until then a temporary reduction or block until the work is done would be a useful tool to have. Alternatively you could look at using builders from the EU countries who could then come and work on those very buildings that are needed.

Finally on immigration, I think Governments in all EU countries need to act more responsibly on where and how immigrants are placed in to communities. Dumping some of the poorest immigrants in the poorest parts of the UK next to communities who are experiencing crime, unemployment and disillusionment with life in general and their prospects, is a disaster waiting to happen, especially when some of those people are known racists.

UK employers, EU employers and landlords in and out of the EU also need to be challenged more on their blatant exploitation of immigrants.

Ok flame away!

I have just read the Glenn Greenwald article. Many valid points, but he still doesn't suggest Brexit is a good idea. Also, if Leavers are "rebelling against elites and the political class", we are still going to be run by the elites, the Conservatives. We have not overthrown the Establishment.

Why are we not looking to the British government to provide answers as to why so many of its citizens are unemployed and what they are going to do about it?

perhaps the reason they aren't doing anything about it, is unemployment is required under our capitalist neo-liberal system. It's doesn't work without a level of unemployment. people are causalities.

And yet instead of saying, hey that sucks, lets change the system, and until we do change the system, let's support you with benefits so at least you aren't homeless, and your children aren't living in poverty, and we are a wealthy nation more than capable of looking after each other.

Instead of this approach, we demonize and hate (we as a broader society I mean) and make C4 TV programs hating on these people, so everyone else can point at them and sneer and feel better about themselves.

All horrendous. All very real problems.
Not much to do with the EU though.

Well, exactly. Not much to do with the EU and everything to do with the people still in power in this country and responsible for negotiating us out of the EU. That's why I voted remain, because the EU was the only thing protecting us from our own leaders.

The OP made a good about the potential of free movement of people within Europe to be damaging because it restricts immigration from other parts of the world. One side of this debate that hasn’t been discussed (and it makes sense why – we don’t have a vote) is the experience of the non-EU migrant living in the UK. I first moved to the UK under the Highly Skilled Migrant Programme which existed until 2008 when it was replaced by the current tiered system. The HSMP did place limits on immigration, but it was possible to get a visa if you had large savings, worked in a specialised field, or had academic credentials. Now, the only route is if you are sponsored by a company for a specific role. The visa scheme has caused problems for the start-up sector because it is expensive for companies to apply to become a sponsor, and following that, to pay for each individual application. At one point in time Boris Johnson (shudder) was even trying to drum up support for a special London visa that would make it easier to recruit engineering and technical talent from outside the EU. I think one only has to look at Silicon Valley to see the amount of wealth technology companies can generate when they have access to the right talent.

I went to a top tier university in London at the time when the Post Study Work visa was available. Despite having very good qualifications, many companies that wanted to hire me were unable to do so due to visa restrictions. This visa route is closed now due to the increase in (or perceived increase, as OP aptly pointed out) of immigration. Many students who are being trained in UK universities are taking their skills and qualifications and contributing to economies elsewhere. In my personal situation I worked for a London-based start up. I helped build the company from the ground up and then had to leave it behind due to visa rules. I also left behind my partner, now fiance, and we’ve spent two years and a lot of money having a transatlantic relationship. The spouse visa rules are also strict (so strict 43% of British citizens would not be able to meet the requirements). I’m happy to comply with these rules, but if an EU resident has a spouse from outside the EEA and decides to move to Britain, they do not have to meet these requirements. They are subject to EU law instead which is more lax. With the new 35000 minimum salary (a law passed due to the perception of current immigration levels) many non-EU workers who have built a life in the UK will have to leave, including citizens of Commonwealth countries who are subjects of the queen. This will adversely affect sectors like teaching where salaries are on the low side.

A PP made the point that others are worried about their jobs but in reality, many people have been struggling with hardship and job loss for years. It has just gone unnoticed. In the same vein, many people are posting about Europeans living in the UK who are now distraught about their future, having to leave jobs or possibly having to move. I have empathy for anyone in this situation, but their pain is not any deeper or valid than my pain and the pain of many others who have already dealt with this very situation. This too has been going on for years and is continuing to go on. I don’t think anyone should vote based on this reason alone, but it’s just one more data point to consider. I love immigration. I am an immigrant. But there needs to be a sensible approach to it so that it doesn’t greatly advantage one group of society while negatively affecting everyone else.

On an unrelated note, one thing I’ve seen discussed is that areas who receive aid from the EU have voted Leave, and this is just impossible to understand. How many of us are concerned about the economic uncertainty we are now facing? Sure, we MIGHT come out better in the long run, but is it worth it to struggle through the next 2, 5, 10 years of recession on the hope that things will improve? (And for many us even a recession will not leave us destitute). How long does it take for there to be tangible, noticeable improvements to everyday life from EU funding? Sure, a road might be built, but when does this start to have a positive impact on the wallet and living standards of someone living in an area that receives EU funding? Is it reasonable to ask them to struggle through 2, 5, 10 years on the chance that their lives MIGHT improve, especially when they’ve been lied to so many times in the past? I’m not saying this was something to base a vote on, but it is another way to look at the situation that might provide some understanding.

And I would just like to point out that as someone who grew up outside the EU I was still able to study abroad, work abroad, and travel extensively. These opportunities will still exist for future generations post-Brexit. I’ve heard so many people shouting about how they won’t be able to go on holiday in Europe anymore or study at Erasmus, so I want to assuage all these fears :P Clearly misinformed votes were cast on both sides.

Just briefly to suzy, as it may get lost in posts later.

Are you really suggesting to the people of the wasteland North, come to London and see what communities crying in the street looks like?

Are you kidding me?????????!!!!!!!!

Sorry. Will be back later, just stuck on the M6 (something to do with roadworks, upgrading every mile of UK motorway with EU demanded concrete central reservations) but suzys comment couldnt be left there! Oh and good article from the Incept there.

Anna - the thing is, it's not that people necessarily want unlimited migration from Europe, it's that it comes with access to the single market.

So if after a very long negotiation all 27 EU members feel like dealing kindly with us, we'll be in the EEA or have a Swiss style deal...which is the same deal we had on EU migration before, but a worse deal on other things.

Controlling immigration from the EU can only be done if we give up the single market and that is never going to happen.

DH's job has been directly adversely affected by membership of the EU. He is a musician, he enhances people's lives 4 or 5 nights a week. He is not famous but he is bloody good, really bloody good. The EU brought in the smoking ban, and his work places have been disappearing ever since. Pubs and clubs have been closing at an alarming rate. Half the time he's playing to empty rooms as everyone's outside having a fag; he's earning less for a longer gig than he was before the ban, all those years ago. It's soul destroying. He didn't mind not being rich and famous because he always got such a great reception and was hugely appreciated. He still is, but when he's playing, a large amount of the time his audience is outdoors. The non-smokers join their smoker friends outside and then the place is empty...

Vis a vis tobacco products. The thing which is filling the pubs and clubs again, so audiences are slowly creeping up is vaping. Which the EU doesn't like. It didn't like snus either some 30 years ago and banned that too. Thus we have had that many years of people continuing to smoke and dying of smoking related diseases, when we needn't have.

So there are people, quite a few, not just those pariah smokers, but the NHS staff who have to tend them when they are ill costing money, and many many musicians who can barely make ends meet any more because if a pub does book a band they pay so little, and who therefore have to rely more on dwindling benefits, quite a few people who are directly affected every day by membership of the EU, people who actually just make your lives a bit better.

There are plenty more, butchers, farmers, fishermen...

I agree with citroen. This referendum should never have happened. The only reason it was there is due to party politics. Win above all else.

So smoking bans shouldn't have been introduced to protect your DH's career? Don't you think it might have something to do with recession generally (thanks to the international financial crisis, not the EU) if clubs were paying less and fewer people were going out to clubs and shows.

Also I think you'll find that the EU had no power to make the UK implement a smoking ban.

BoatyMcBoat

Sorry, but I WHOLLY support the smoking ban. It isn't just the EU. I lived in the US and other places, smoking bans exist in a lot of places. And for a reason. I don't go to a pub or club to inhale someone's bloody smoke. No. Even when I go to an outdoor restaurant and I notice someone smoking nearby, I move tables.

I'm not being a diva. It's because my body just doesn't react well to nicotine. It's not a new thing. When I was a kid back in the 90s, my parents took me to a party where many people smoked. I was ill for two days after that and my mother, too. Why should a healthy, non-smoking person be subjected to the nicotine inhaled by those who choose to smoke?!

This is not an EU thing. It would be something that would have been introduced to the UK with the EU or not.

Maybe your husband should try playing outdoor gigs.

Maybe your husband should try playing outdoor gigs. Exactly.

Remember Roy Castle who developed lung cancer from playing the trombone in smoky clubs. He died too young. Smoking ban good Imogen

Imo stupid autocorrect

BoatyMcBoat

In case you're not trolling... your husband should be happy people don't smoke around him. Better for his voice.

BoatyMcBoat The EU has absolutely nothing to do with the smoking ban.

I respect the carefully reasoned arguments of the OP and others on the thread but god it's depressing that so many people like you voted on the basis of total myths. Couldn't you at least have Googled before you made a decision that will affect our country for decades to come?

Nightclubs have been in massive decline over the past 10 years. I don't think the EU is the main reason.

Chris Are you suggesting it's acceptable that people are suffering because they live in London? This seems to be a common theme on here.

I very specifically said that a compromise should have been sought before going into a referendum.

I believe that nobody should be crying in the streets: that means not you OR us. I understand completely that people have been suffering for many years but why the hell should ANYBODY suffer, be a sacrificial lamb. The government went for the easy quick option instead of aiming for a better UK for all of us. The result is obviously a divided UK that I think will never be the same in our lifetimes, especially with Scotland ready to go.

My point was that many out voters seem completely oblivious to the immediate and terrible impact on real people. Many of the arguments on here totally side step round the negative effects that are already being felt, talking about them as if they are acceptable if it means others have a shot at a better life. Again the sacrificial lamb argument when surely nobody deserves to suffer.
However, Like many others you seem very quick to turn this into a London vs the rest war. Another divisive attitude. 😞

Smoking ban is not an EU thing. When I was younger it was home taping that was killing live music. Not enough people go to live gigs and realise how much better it can be than streaming it or whatever people do now.
Smoking is slowly killing my mum btw. She's given up but it's going to kill her.

I quote from Wikipedia, but it's an accurate summation
"A smoking ban in England, making it illegal to smoke in all enclosed work places in England, came into force on 1 July 2007 as a consequence of the Health Act 2006. Similar bans had already been introduced by the rest of the United Kingdom before this — Scotland on 26 March 2006, Wales on 2 April 2007 and Northern Ireland on 30 April 2007."

Smoking bans across the EU vary. To quote an EU report (report, note, not legislation)
"National measures differ considerably in extent and scope. The strictest measures were introduced by Ireland, the UK, Greece, Hungary, Bulgaria, Malta and Spain."

Snowbells I really shouldn't MN after a pint. I was having a laugh with some friends and we concocted thestory, but we really didn't mean to actually post.

I apologise to everyone for bringing such stupidity and silliness onto a serious thread; a thread which I find very interesting now I've sobered up.

I am sorry.

Can definitely understand the need for a drink at the moment, Boaty

Sadly though, your post was believable because so many people have voted on the basis of lies.

I was writing a long comment, but realised there's actually an article already. So, why re-invent the wheel. Here are our options:

Five models for post-Brexit UK trade

The Norway style EEA deal is the one least damaging to the UK economy, but it's literally the same we have now, but without us having a say in the EU.

And don't forget that both Norway and Switzerland have had to join Schengen. The UK is the only country with an opt-out and we have just chucked it away.

So Brexit will likely end with us having less control of our borders as the price of a common market.

All excellent points anna275 and the sort of conflict (non-EU immigration vs EU immigration) that plays out in other countries such as the Netherlands. The only way the UK can exert any type of control on selection (and in particular, in ignoring calls to absorb their share of refugees) is coming out of the EU altogether INCLUDING the single market. Since this would be economic suicide, far better to remain and keep making progress on the reform front.

citroenpresse

All excellent points anna275 and the sort of conflict (non-EU immigration vs EU immigration) that plays out in other countries such as the Netherlands. The only way the UK can exert any type of control on selection (and in particular, in ignoring calls to absorb their share of refugees) is coming out of the EU altogether INCLUDING the single market. Since this would be economic suicide, far better to remain and keep making progress on the reform front.

Meaningful reform was not on the cards, that was clear. The EU commission protect the Eurozone and their own pay checks above all else.

Your assuming we won't get a good dealfrom Europe, this hinges on the EU and the Eurozone staying together, judging by the losses those countries have made since the vote and the fact Greece and Italy are nearly on the brink I don't see a united europe for too much longer.