Why are all the twats voting leave?

[HeckyWithTheGoodBear]

Me being one of them probably

I can't find the list I saw earlier, but it's been playing on my mind all day.

It was a list of remain supporters - there was the Bank of England, the IMF, 99% of economists and big businesses, all the non racist newspapers, Steven Hawking, all unions, most councils, Obama etc etc

And a list of brexit supporters. Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, the leader of ISIS, Vicky Pattison out of Geordie Shore

I'm sure I want to leave. I've started, read and engaged in very interesting debates on MN and elsewhere that have led me to this decision. I'm not saying it's clear cut, but I certainly don't think it's an obviously foolish vote to make. So why are the majority of influential and intelligent people voting remain, and the twats of the world voting leave?

Maybe it's just pre match nerves. But I can't help but thinking if all these geniuses reckon remain is the way to go, I've probably got it wrong.

Thoughts?

[Peppatina]

I do chuckle at the 'Statistically more educated people are voting remain', trotted out in a snide, 'You're obviously stupid if you vote differently' way.

Poorer people tend to have been more negatively affected (or perceive being more negatively affected depending which side you are on) by being in the EU and also happen to generally be less educated.

That doesn't make them stupid.

[JeanGenie23]

I'm not rich or powerful but I've voted to stay.

I believe it's the right thing to do by my daughter. I also believe that leaving will mean the same shit for the average joe (like me) but will make holidays to EU more expensive, my FIL will probably loose his job, I also believe it will make us more exposed to illegal immigration, housing prices will plummet (great for first time buyers, but not so much for my mom who has owned her house for 30+yrs)

I would rather stay than risk a financial Unknown.

[LeaveTheRoundAbout]

Hear hear Peppa.

[HysteriaLane]

These things really do bring out the worst in people don't they.

I find it pretty distasteful reading and hearing all the 'you're an uneducated twat if you vote leave and a wealthy, educated (yet selfish) person if you stay'.

It's a referendum, we have an opportunity to vote, and we're fortunate that we live in a country where we can do that. We won't all vote the same, but really, stooping to name calling and swift judgements on anyone who doesn't share your view? This concerns me far more than whether we stay or leave. It's just ugly.

[smallfox1980]

Leavetheroundabout, you and the rest of the exit camp are perfectly happy to use data and statistics when you think it improves your argument, yet then attack (like you have done here) when people use them to demonstrate another opinion.

Look at the misuse of both the £350 million, and £600 a week million costs, neither are accurate, both are misleading, but you were all happy to use them and continue to do so even though the National Office for the use of Statistics has said they are potentially misleading.

You aren't making this decision based on reading a range of information and coming to a conclusion, you have looked for information which backs your pre conceived judgement.

You specifically also trot out the "elites" narrative, and words fail me on that one.

[MangoMoon]

I've come to the conclusion that most of the British public should be given a basic intelligence test before they're allowed near a ballot box.
Jesus help us if the leave camp win. The thought of breathing the same air as some of them is keeping me awake at night..

I score quite highly on IQ tests, also on EQ measures.
I am (I like to think) quite a nice person.

I voted Leave.

Do enjoy breathing my air though...

[MangoMoon]

Both sides need to start hearing the other. More than anything, I would like us all to have a debate about the collective values we live by and the society we want for the future. I think it's only by confronting, with generosity, the fears and position of others that we can move forward.

Good post shovetheholly.

I like to think that the majority on both sides of the vote want this as the true outcome regardless of which way the result goes.

[Littlemisslovesspiders]

I agree.

If the things in the link I posted aren't addressed I think the splits in the country will get larger.

I get the feeling however that if the vote is remain people will say oh that's that then and not see the rest.

[ThisCakeFilledIsle]

Agreed MangoMoon.

[ThisCakeFilledIsle]

Harris has it spot on in that article, I think.

[chicaguapa]

This is the way I see it:

The LEAVE voters believe one (not necessarily all) of the following:

No-one should make their decisions for them, not least the EU and the EU is undemocratic* - this causes Remainers to accuse them of toddler tantrums and point out that the EU isn't as undemocratic as they think.
Uncontrolled immigration is causing strain on our housing and public services* - to which Remainers point out that it is lack of UK funding that is the primary reason for this, not immigration. And that uncontrolled immigration out of the EU is not a certainty.
The EU costs too much and this money could be better spent on public services* - to which Remainers point out that the Exit campaign has dropped that argument now we all know they exaggerated the amount spent and in a current Tory government who's to say that the additional money in the Treasury will be spent on public services anyway, especially if the economy takes a hit.
The future of Britain is brighter without the EU* - to which the Brexiters argue that there is no basis for this and the UK is a small fish in a big pond.

The REMAIN voters believe:

They're happy with the way things are* - to which Exiters get livid at the apathy and acceptance
The EU is not perfect but reforms can be made within* - to which the Exiters state that reforms will not be made from within
Leaving will cause economic downfall* - to which the Exiters accuse them of self-servitude and watching their own pockets
Better the devil you know* - to which the Exiters accuse them of being scared of taking risks.

[Kimononono]

There is only one bigot on here and that's small "you and the rest of the leave camp" .. for just one example. How the hell do you know what thousands of other people are thinking. Are you not lumping thousands of people in to one category that fits your 'idea' of the 'type' of people that want to leave? Does it make you feel smug because of your righteous attitude?

Turn it in.

[smallfox1980]

Well the leave camp generally do come up with the same arguments, in fact looking on here and at other talk sites/message boards it seems they also all have a particular style of writing too. LOTS of capitals asking us to LEAVE.

I also stand by what I say, the leave camp have been happy to use statistics when it suits their purpose. The one that tickled me most was using the Bank of England data on the impact of immigration on low pay ( 10% increase in immigration leads to a 1.9% reduction in pay for unskilled workers in low paid jobs) but then attacked the Bank of England when its forecasts for the future of the economy following a vote leave were quite negative.

[MangoMoon]

Have posted this on another thread already, but it beautifully sums it up for me:

[Kimononono]

No small some people in the leave camp may do this. Just like some people in the remain camp act like bigots. Not all of each 'camp' do both.

You really can't help yourself seeing anybody that has a differnt opinion as you as lesser.

bigotry
ˈbɪɡətri/
noun
intolerance towards those who hold different opinions from oneself.
"the difficulties of combating prejudice and bigotry"
synonyms: prejudice, bias, partiality, partisanship, sectarianism, discrimination, unfairness, injus

Can you not wrap your mind round the fact that it's ok to have a differnt set of beliefs and opinions and that it really or shouldnt be a 'them or us' divide.

When you post in the fashion that you are doing, you are actually part of the problem of people not wanting to listen to each other.

[Kimononono]

mango bloody hell, how apt.

Sometimes I feel like it's like two mirror images screaming at each other refusing to listen.

[smallfox1980]

Kimonno, Ok not all of the exit camp have done this.

There have been a lot of them who have though. Thanks for the English lesson, I don't think I'm a bigot.

[Kimononono]

Thanks for the English lesson, I don't think I'm a bigot - going off your posts it points to me that you are.

Your accusing people of things yet you don't like it when it's done back to you.

[smallfox1980]

I've never called anyone a bigot. I've clearly and accurately pointed out that many of the out posters on here, and the leaders of the leave campaign are quite happy to use facts and figures when it suits them yet attack others. I've also found it highly interesting that when the remain camp use experts they are derided on here yet when someone comes out for leave they are lauded by the remain camp.

Oh and I've just read your comments on another thread about your fears for your daughters if Turkey joins the EU. Re read your definition and look closer to home.

[smallfox1980]

Should be "lauded by the leave camp. "

[Madbengalmum]

And the stay camp havent, told used facts and figures when it suits them, and indeed used scaremongering tactics??🤔

Unfortunately, neither leave or remain supporters are in a position to critise what has been said by politicians. They have all had their moments!

[RedYellow046]

Not sure if anyone's said but there's some good Leavers - Gisela Stuart, Duncan Bannatyne (if you like him), among others.

Meanwhile, George Osborne is on the Remain camp and honestly I can't think of anyone worse.

I'm personally not bothered by the "faces" of each campaign as they will each have their own reasons for wanting in/out and it will probably be self-serving (as we will all probably vote too). But there's scum on both sides, so the ridiculous "if you vote out, you're on Farage's side!!!" BS is getting on my nerves. Glad it's nearly over!

[shovetheholly]

I know people who are the opposite of racist who are voting 'leave' because they think the EU is failing migrants and undemocratic. Some are open border advocates. To my mind, they are less racist than most 'remainers', who often duck this issue.

There are, I am sure, many other very noble reasons for people to vote leave. Anti-capitalism, for example.

However, I am very confused about one specific element of the out campaign, which is the 'Leave because: immigrants' argument. Maybe I am wrong about this - if I am, I am happy to have someone explain to me where and why. To my mind, those people have a very odd view of the economy as a 'fixed' amount of resources that have to be fought over rather than rather than seeing the economy as a flexible entity where growth and public services depend on maintaining the population of working age people, which can only be done in an era of falling birthrates via migration. I wonder how of working age who are voting out to reduce migration think their pensions will be paid? More puzzlingly, those arguing for leave on this ground seem to neglect the fact that leaving the EU won't actually do anything about migration, because we have to accept free movement as a condition of entry to the single market. So I am confused as to how it's really an argument at all.

Nor can I really explain why these people turn to immigration when they are discussing things like the housing crisis, the NHS or schools, instead of looking to government policy as the cause of those problems. I worry that the only reason is that migration seems like a more obvious answer because migrants strike them as an inherent 'problem', something that 'doesn't belong' - and that is a more ready-to-hand explanation for them than the actual explanation which is underfunding. If that is true (and I admit I could be totally wrong) it is a wee bit xenophobic.

When this argument shades into 'Leave because: British jobs and values are under threat!' I think it definitely does become xenophobic.

I should add that the complacent and self-congratulatory cosmopolitanism of middle class people voting Remain, who haven't exposed to the stresses and strains of the past decade of economic turbulence, are also something that irritates me!

[Madbengalmum]

Absolutely, you would have to be completely devoid of any intelligence just to vote for a cause based on whether you like a person who supports them or not.
Who cares how famous/infamous people are voting. I certainly do not.

[smallfox1980]

I don't think people will vote because they like someone but I think it's more used as an appeal to authority and both sides have been guilty of it but on the leave side there certainly has been a continual derision of experts.