Best Bremain argument I've seen

[Notbigandnotclever]

Copied from a Facebook post by Calvin Morris.

A good friend of mine came up with a great idea. If you don't have the time/inclination to find out all the facts about the EU referendum (I don't blame you) and are possibly unsure which way to vote, perhaps knowing how other notable people are thinking could help out.

Here are a few that strongly believe the UK should remain a member of the EU:

• Governor of the Bank of England
• International Monetary Fund
• Institute for Fiscal Studies
• Confederation of British Industry
• Leaders/heads of state of every single other member of the EU
• President of the United States of America
• Eight former US Treasury Secretaries
• President of China
• Prime Minister of India
• Prime Minister of Canada
• Prime Minister of Australia
• Prime Minister of Japan
• Prime Minister of New Zealand
• The chief executives of most of the top 100 companies in the UK including Marks and Spencer, BT, Asda, Vodafone, Virgin, IBM, BMW etc.
• Kofi Annan, the former Secretary General of the United Nations
• All living former Prime Ministers of the UK (from both parties)
• Virtually all reputable and recognised economists
• The Prime Minister of the UK
• The leader of the Labour Party
• The Leader of the Liberal Democrats
• The Leader of the Green Party
• The Leader of the Scottish National Party
• The leader of Plaid Cymru
• Leader of Sinn Fein
• Martin Lewis, that money saving dude off the telly
• The Secretary General of the TUC
• Unison
• National Union of Students
• National Union of Farmers
• Stephen Hawking
• Chief Executive of the NHS
• 300 of the most prominent international historians
• Director of Europol
• David Anderson QC, Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation
• Former Directors of GCHQ
• Secretary General of Nato
• Church of England
• Church in Scotland
• Church in Wales
• Friends of the Earth
• Greenpeace
• Director General of the World Trade Organisation
• WWF
• World Bank
• OECD

Here are pretty much the only notable people who think we should leave the EU:

• Boris Johnson, who probably doesn’t really care either way, but knows he’ll become Prime Minister if the country votes to leave
• A former Secretary of State for Work and Pensions who carried out a brutal regime of cuts to benefits and essential support for the poorest in society as well as the disabled and sick
• That idiot that was Education Secretary and every single teacher in the country hated with a furious passion for the damage he was doing to the education system
• Leader of UKIP
• BNP
• Britain First
• Donald Trump
• Keith Chegwin
• David Icke

So, as I said, if you can’t be bothered to look into the real facts and implications of all this in/out stuff, just pick the list that you most trust and vote that way. It really couldn’t be more simple.

And if you are unsure about leaving, don't.

Please repost this list, if you think it might help.

Well that's a fair and balanced list

Loads of rich people want us to stay in. Well they can't possibly have an agenda - let's stay in!

The fact that this is Remain's 'Best Argument' do it because it will suit all these rich middle aged men speaks VOLUMES.

I'm still strongly on the Leave side I'm afraid. Nice try though.

Vast majority of economists wanted us to join the Euro. Thank goodness we didn't

Quite.

funny you mention that oranges the same guy in the Treasury who's coming under pressure for the economic impact of brexit recommended that the UK did NOT join the euro. Economists were much more divided on that than they are on leaving.

wellerr I see quite a few rich middleaged men on the Leave side. Weird characterisation.

Also on the remain side - are environmental and equality NGOs, majority of the Green Party etc etc

www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2016/05/record regarding economists on the euro

www.economist.com/sites/default/files/EconomistBrexitBriefs16.pdf
The longer-term effects are more controversial, although most economists reckon that they too are likely to be negative. That is not least because it can take many years for an economy to recover forgone shortterm output (if it does). Broadly speaking, economists find five ways in which Brexit could affect future GDP.

Losses arising from lower trade are by far the biggest. Later this month the Centre for European Reform, a think-tank, will publish a revised version of its 2014 study on Brexit, based on the work of economists
from Groningen University in the Netherlands. It concludes that Britain’s trade with the EU has been 55% greater than it would have been without membership—and that there have been no detectable losses from
trade diverted from third countries towards the EU.

Even if only some of these gains were at risk from Brexit, they would hugely outweigh the second effect, the economic benefit from cutting Britain’s annual net contribution to the EU budget of some £8.5 billion ($12 billion). The budget gain is also swamped by likely losses from the third factor, lower foreign investment. Brexiteers argue that this will be unaffected, but the evidence is that a large chunk of foreign
investment, especially in financial services and cars, has come because of Britain’s EU membership. Gains from a fourth possible factor, fewer onerous rules, are largely illusory.

Analysis by the OECD, a rich-country club, finds that British labour and product markets are already among the least regulated of all its members.

The fifth consideration is migration. Were Britain to impose tighter controls on EU migrants post-Brexit, growth would depend on attracting from elsewhere the skills its economy needs. Yet it is politically unrealistic to believe that Britons who have just voted to leave the EU partly to curb uncontrolled migration from eastern Europe will want to welcome many more migrants from places like India and Africa.

The Treasury is due to produce its own assessment of EU membership later this month. It is likely to conclude that the economic effects of Brexit would be negative, and that the short-term risks to Britain’s
economy are substantial. Economics is accordingly the Remain campaign’s strongest card—provided the campaigners manage to
play it well.

Most businesses back remain but are afraid of raising their heads above the parapet from the same link:
A survey by the Confederation of British Industry (CBI) found 80% of members for Remain, with only 5% for Leave. In response to claims that it represents only big companies, the CBI points out that it speaks
for 190,000 members, mostly small and medium-sized enterprises, and that 71% of SMEs want to stay. The Institute of Directors and the British Chambers of Commerce, with memberships that have a higher share
of SMEs than the CBI, find most in favour. Even a majority of the Federation of Small Businesses narrowly backs Remain.

I deregistered from Mumsnet because I was not getting any work done but your OP is so unreasonable that I had to come back on!

As we all know, there are lots of respected non-Tory politicians backing Leave – for example Kate Hoey, Gisela Stuart, John Mann, Frank Field (a man of integrity and therefore charged with dealing with BHS), Lord David Owen, and Baroness Jenny Jones, Green Party.

There are also lots of respected and successful British business people – for example the founders of Dyson, JCB, Wetherspoons, Carphone Warehouse. These are people who have actually managed to start and run successful and profitable businesses.

And then there is the long list of mainly small to medium businesses who actually pay for Great Britain. (Small businesses are the backbone of the British economy – they employ 81.6 per cent of the UK workforce – and they usually pay their taxes!!)

You can see the full list here if you scroll down on this page:

www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/250_business_leaders_back_vote_leave_as_new_poll_shows_eu_stops_entrepreneurs_creating_jobs

I’m not pretending that this list is not Leave propaganda, of course it is. But it is worth noting that all these people stuck their neck out to back Leave because they think it is right that we leave the EU.

They were not offered a knighthood if they did it, like many of the signatories to the infamous Remain propaganda letter. This rumour is sadly true. I have an old school friend who is now Chairman of a financial services company. He was offered an honour if he signed the Remain letter and increased scrutiny by the FSA if he did not.

So - politicians & financiers want us to remain - I wonder why?
Perhaps power and money speaks to them?
Do we really believe that their every action is taken thinking of all the normal people in the UK? Perhaps not...

ultimately the debate seems to be around economics - the reality is that as a nation we will survive either route economically - we have amazing resilience, talent, ability as a people...

the debate should really be about sovereignty - we are a democracy with an elected leadership that we can choose to remove... The EU is not a democracy, we have no power to remove the leadership - so a Remain vote is simply one which surrenders our democracy once and for all time...

is that what the people really want?

Interestingly Bamford & Dyson are both people who could be seen to have strong economic reasons to stay in the EU - so perhaps we should be asking why they are voting to leave?

You need to return to that list and not be impressed by a set of titles, but ask for each person - what their personal gain / motivation might be - will they personally be more / less powerful in or out - will they personally be richer / poorer in or out... then decide whether you wish to hand over control of our country to a group of people you didn't elect and can't get rid of...

Lets be clear - any economic advantage in remaining / leaving can be reproduced the other way around through economic treaties - the one thing that can only be differentiated by a leave / remain vote is who will ultimately run our country and whether we have any control over that set of people

You also need to look at who'd like us to leave beyond Britain - putin, trump and le pen.

Akak - I guess you missed the post saying that unions, environmental and equality NGOS are in favour of remain

You also need to look at who'd like us to leave beyond Britain

Or you can look at the 'arguements' and make your own decisions.

Milly - the polls shown in the economist shows that majority of both big business and sme's are for remain.

Dyson I imagine doesn't like energy efficiency requirements and I've already mentioned several times that JCB got a big fine from the Commission for uncompetitive practices. Am sure they'd love less regulation preventing them from illegal price setting eg

leave it's connected. Putin is in favour of a weaker more divided EU. I think we're more stable and secure in

shocking purits.

What more worrying though is that anyone would make this vote based on personalities in play right now.
Cameron, Farage, JOhnson, will all be distant forgotten names by the time our dc are old enough to know the implications of whats gone on!
For goodness sake do your own research, dont care about who or who isnt backing or not.

You need to return to that list and not be impressed by a set of titles, but ask for each person - what their personal gain / motivation might be - will they personally be more / less powerful in or out - will they personally be richer / poorer in or out... then decide whether you wish to hand over control of our country to a group of people you didn't elect and can't get rid of...

^^ This.

wellerr I see quite a few rich middleaged men on the Leave side. Weird characterisation.

^^ and if you truly believe leave is going to be a disater what have these men got to gain>

Dyson I imagine doesn't like energy efficiency requirements and I've already mentioned several times that JCB got a big fine from the Commission for uncompetitive practices.

So what are all the motives of those wanting to remain? They will all have selfish motives too. They aren't all completely selfless are they?

I'm not in the UK but that list alone would make me strongly consider a theoretical "leave" vote.

We need to get Joey Essex added to the "Leave" list (he's on the Farage flotilla right now......).

Yes, that well-known "intellectual Titan" Joey Essex. I'm sure he must have all the facts at his fingertips......oh, hang on........

Perhaps a better way to approach the above list is to consider how much those featuring on either side know about the EU, what drives them and what the alternatives are.

These two points together should give you a fair idea of who is credible, and who is not.

I think you may find you will be hard pushed to doubt independent national and international bodies like the IMF, the WTO, the OECD, the IFS and the Bank of England who make a sound economic argument – namely, that Britain benefits economically from barrier-free access to a huge European market and at the same time enjoys access to other important markets, like the US and China. And that this will be lost at least in the short to medium term as Britain renegotiates its trade deals with significantly reduced negotiating power.

I think you may find you will be unable to dismiss the views of those that have dedicated their lives to making peoples’ lives better and have experienced first hand the impact of Britain’s membership of the EU, like those in charge of the NHS, leading scientists, those fighting for consumer and employee rights and the most senior CoE clergymen. EU legislation protects us from the worst excesses of British governments in these fields; and the EU is making up for shortfalls in public spending for key services provided by charities that serve important public interest purposes.

And I think you may find that when you contrast this with infamous Leave campaign demagogues, who knowingly and deliberately peddle untruths, foster division and spread hatred to further their own private agendas, whatever the consequences, or politicians, who have failed to keep up with the realities of the way the EU functions and deliberately mislead the public over crucial things like ‘unelected Eurocrats’ and ‘border control’, it is clear whose views will stand up to scrutiny.

I cannot resist, so just for the record:

• The Commissioners are appointed by elected national governments and confirmed in their posts by the directly elected European Parliament (MEPs subject candidates to effective scrutiny and have rejected them in the past); the laws are proposed by the Commission but negotiated and made by the Council (ie representatives of elected national governments) and the European Parliament (ie directly elected MEPs) and implemented by national governments (often with quite a lot of room for national manoeuvre); and while it is true that the Commission’s civil servants are unelected, I cannot remember the last time I was asked to vote for civil servants in Whitehall.

• The UK is not part of Schengen and retains control over its borders. It can refuse entry to those who pose a threat or are otherwise undesirable. That applies equally to those from EU countries and those from non-EU countries.

• EU immigrants make a gross contribution to the UK and provide much needed labour in areas where many Brits do not want to work or fail to provide work to an acceptable standard (if in doubt, look at how well houses are built in, say, Germany or Poland and then compare this with your British-built home.)

What little 'sovereignty' the UK has willingly and knowingly given up to the EU it gets back many times over in increased influence on the global stage. The UK is stronger as part of a team and being in the EU allows it to punch above its weight.

• The EU is responsible for maintaining over 60 years of peace among European nation states and for providing strong incentives to those who sought to overthrow their repressive socialist regimes. Sabre-rattling in Russia illustrates quite impressively that this important function is far from superfluous.

Have a good day!

A quick glance at the OPs list shows how many remainers are in receipt of EU funds such as:

International Monetary Fund (as well as receiving £££ from EU, the IMF Chief LaGarde is undergoing investigation for fraud)
Institute for Fiscal Studies
Confederation of British Industry
WWF
OECD
Friends of the Earth
NUF (although majority of its members want to leave)
NUS
Stephen Hawking
TUC

Then there are the world leaders such as Obama and the PResident of China. Are they doing what is best for UK or what is best for their countries?

Leaders/heads of state of every single other member of the EU - that would be because we pay more than most and because of the domino effect of Brexit.

The chief executives of most of the top 100 companies in the UK including Marks and Spencer, BT, Asda, Vodafone, Virgin, IBM, BMW etc. Brexiters include JCB (Lord Bamford), Tim Martin Chairman Wetherspoons, James Dyson. John Cauldwell, Phones4U, David Ross, Carphone Wareheouse, hotelier Sir Rocco Forte, Former CEO of HSBC Michael Geoghegan,

Kofi Annan, the former Secretary General of the United Nations The EU supports many UN missions. Almost a third of the European Commission's aid budget goes to the UN

All living former Prime Ministers of the UK (from both parties) Tony Blair? Gordon Brown? No asset to the remain side but undoubtedly awaiting handsome jobs in EU. Blair is hoping for Presidency.

Virtually all reputable and recognised economists disputable. Many have vested interests. Plenty of economists support Brexit.

Leader of Sinn Fein - You mean IRA sympathiser Gerry Adams?

Martin Lewis, that money saving dude off the telly LOL

I could go on but the point I am making is that most who strongly support remain are doing it for their vested interests and not for what is best for the future of the UK.

Akak - I guess you missed the post saying that unions, environmental and equality NGOS are in favour of remain

no - sadly they all have their own agendas as well...

having dealt with unions on a number of occasions they are very often more about their power than their members, I have seen shocking travesty of justice carried out because unions instead on legal cases that left specific members of theirs far worse off, but looked as though they were doing something / benefited the union - unions have a great base ideal, but sadly are mainly now run for their own power...

environmental and equality NGOs tend to prioritise their perspective over a balanced view of all those involved - they are rarely dispassionate or look to benefit all of society...

The reality though is simple - as a country if we the electorate want the outcome desired by unions / environmental groups / equality groups we have more power to have it within a Leave framework than within a Remain framework - that is how democracy works - we can have it within either approach - so it has no real relevance to this decision...

let's not disguise this - it has very little to do with the arguments being thrown around which are emotive and one-sided (from both sides) - it has everything to do with whether we want to be able to decide the future of our country or not - both answers are valid:

• Remain - give control of the UK to unelected people running the EU
• Leave - keep control in the hands of those who are elected and accountable to the people every 5 years in an election.

If those running the EU are perfect and do the job well - we could be better in than out, after all a benevolent dictatorship is the ideal form of government... However if there were to be any corruption / any power usurped / any money misused - then that is where that approach falls down...

In the absence of a benevolent dictatorship and based on current evidence of the gravy train that is Europe I would prefer to stick with our democracy - however flawed it might be, we do have the power to change it!

I think you may find you will be unable to dismiss the views of those that have dedicated their lives to making peoples’ lives better and have experienced first hand the impact of Britain’s membership of the EU

Um you mean people like Labour MP Frank Field who has indeed seen the devastating impact of the EU on desperately poor part of the UK, Birkenhead?

www.frankfield.co.uk/latest-news/articles/news.aspx?p=1021270

"a most crucial issue here is the impact of uncontrolled immigration on our most disadvantaged citizens"

"It is the poorest in our communities, those whose choices in life are already by far the most restricted, whose standard of living is most adversely affected by the arrival of a record number of newcomers"

Or does he not count?

• Remain - give control of the UK to unelected people running the EU
• Leave - keep control in the hands of those who are elected and accountable to the people every 5 years in an election.

^^ as simple as this. I studied politics, incld the Eastern Bloc, as well as Classics. I cant remeber it all now but its in there somewhere, the importance of keeping power.

Its like your In laws running your home for you.

Imagine giving MIL your money and she sets a budget for you every week and tells you what to cook and where to buy from, not many on MN would allow that

I dont want someone else running my home, thank you very much.

40% of EU funds goes to the Common Agricultural Policy. It costs each household £245 p.a. We don't get that much back, some countries fare much better that us. However, what we do get back as CAP is spunked on wealthy landowners such as:

Prince Charles
Duke of Westminster
An acreage-owning Saudi Prince
Sir Richard Sutton, net assets of £136.5m, receives millions.
Harrow
Millfield
Eton
Stowe

Obviously they need my £245 more than my children do

SoThisIsSummer.

You are obviously learned but perhaps you were off sick when the EU was discussed. Or you studied at a time when the EU did indeed have a democratic deficit and missed the news that this has changed.

As a fellow political scientist, I would encourage you to have a very close look at the way political decisions are made here in the UK, and by whom. I very much doubt that you will find that the decision-making process here is more democratic than at EU level. Yes you can vote every five years, but thanks to the Great British voting system, chances are that your vote won't count.

And in case you missed this, you can also vote for your MEP...