Is anyone else getting quite tired of being called a racist?

[Peppatina]

I know it can't just be me.

It doesn't matter what carefully thought out reasons a brexiter has for wanting to leave (I've seen some very articulate and reasoned ones on mn itself) we are still all getting lumped into a stereotypical group of closet racist idiots.

And Lord forbid any of those reasons might just involve any concern over levels of eu migration!

I've been told that I'm essentially imagining the three week waiting list for my GP or that this is nothing to do with eu migration. If I say I know it is because of the names being called out I become the equivalent of Enoch Powell.

The same goes for a certain local estate very much being a no go area, especially for young girls. After braving this street once with my children and being spat on and shouted at by a group of very hostile Romanian men/boys I've been told I imagined it.

When I had my son a few week ago my I was the only English speaking person in my ward. A polish man was shouting and being very aggressive to staff as they were struggling to find an interpreter.

I absolutely know that not every migrant is aggressive and that they should build more schools and go surgeries but I believe I'm right to be concerned about a high number of migrants who are not intergrating with their local community and the unsustainable strain on services.

I'm sick of being told that my experiences don't matter. That to even mention that this is what life is like in our town means I am a racist or little englander.

It's usually non-EU migrants that bring older family members with them (eg from the Indian subcontinent). EU migrants are disproportionately young and single, and they come to work because there are loads of jobs here. Unemployment is at a record low in the UK. We have a shortage of labour.

I don't understand why we don't talk more about the crisis of our ageing population. Hospitals are full to bursting with sick elderly people, no one to look after them except poorly paid migrants.

I agree we need all the things you list. But they're nothing to do with our EU membership. The government needs to invest properly in public services and curb the trend towards exploitative zero-hours contracts

Yes this.

Woodhill I agree that it's a shame, and yes, improving all of this would certainly help. It's not the entire story though - there are lots of reasons why birthrates fall in developed countries, and it's a general trend observed (to various degrees) all over the world.

Even with all the structural help that French women get, the birth rate is still juuust below generational replacement, while we'd need it to be quite a bit higher than 2.1 to deal with the aging problem.

Frankly I'm not seeing the UK starting to massively fund childcare the way France does, but here's hoping.

(and that's assuming that we do want British residents to start having more children, which is environmentally very debatable)

Or, from a different perspective: what are the Leavers' solutions to the aging of the British population?

I don't have a solution - rather, I accept the fact that the global population has to contract at some point and that this will be painful for everyone, particularly the elderly. But it has to happen. I have some skin in this game; both my husband and I have ageing parents.

As a sidebar, people often talk about China and how terrible there 1 child policy was. I don't disagree. That said, you don't often have people waxing about how great it would be if there were another half billion people on the planet.

Not there but their.

Even with all the structural help that French women get, the birth rate is still juuust below generational replacement, while we'd need it to be quite a bit higher than 2.1 to deal with the aging problem.

This is a bit like tending to an infected hangnail while the liver is in failure.

As much as we all love our parents and want to see them well-cared for, is it really worth driving the planet over the edge to ensure that this happens? I'd rather

1. deliver lower quality care to the elderly or
2. let our roads or some other infrastructure suffer for a few generations in favour of elderly care

than see the global population continue to climb.

The idea that a points based system will resolve all our issues is ludicrous.

Why would a qualified doctor from, say, Germany go through the cost, hassle and expense of applying to work here when they can go and work in any of our neighbours without doing so?

It will create huge skill shortages in key occupations, as well as headaches for employers. Many will relocate to places where they can more easily find staff.

I think the Brexiters are the most dishonest people. They'll say anything. All this crap about making it fairer for non-EU immigrants, I don't believe a word of it. I think there are lots of people who don't understand what they are voting for.

For me it boils down to not wanting to loose my human rights and working rights. I'm a, mother and part-time agency worker. Leaving Europe will be terrible for me and lots of people like me. My pay and working conditions will only get much worse if we leave, that's in the unlikely event I'll still have a job.

People have far too much faith in our current government. Taking back control is another way of saying we give more control to the Tories. Who wants that??? All they've done so far is cut public services and public service jobs, then blame it on the immigrants. They've also been sneakily taking away money and rights from the poorer half of the country. Are people blind not to see that? If I could go back to a better time, I wouldn't go back 50 years, I'd go back 8. I really don't understand why people want to leave.

I think those wanting to 'stay' in the EU are way more dishonest. I don't understand why anyone would want to stay except for selfish reasons.
Lots of the 'remain' do not realise what they are voting for - they have fallen for the lies and half-truths put out -
the ECHR is NOTHING to do with the EU
Working rights are in UK law - why should they disappear
UK governments can be voted out if they do not do what the electorate want
I give up NC22 - you will not be convinced. Vote as you wish but do not claim the moral high ground. There are faults on both sides.

It's very unlikely the Tories will be voted out any time soon. Our population is aging and getting more right wing all the time, especially with people like Farage making it acceptable to be hateful. Our aging population can be easily blackmailed with fear about pensions, immigration etc. Anyway, we can't vote them out for years, imagine the harm they can do in that time

It's very deceitful of the Brexiters to say the billions we give to Europe will be spent on our NHS. I've never heard so much crap in my life. If they were going to invest more in the NHS why have they been trying to run it into the ground? Those on the right want it privitised. Don't trust them. All the people I know that work in the NHS want to remain in Europe.

I've heard it all now! There are real human beings with brains that would actually vote leave (the voting choice of racists) to avoid the racists getting into power? Pull the other one.

NameChanger why do you think you won't have a job should we leave the EU?

I accept the fact that the global population has to contract at some point and that this will be painful for everyone, particularly the elderly.

Also very unfair on the young - they'll have to work longer and pay more taxes, for inferior education, healthcare, etc.

I'd rather
1. deliver lower quality care to the elderly or
2. let our roads or some other infrastructure suffer for a few generations in favour of elderly care than see the global population continue to climb.

But you're talking on the global scale here. Because it's ahead of the global demographics trend, Britain is in the lucky position to have a 3rd option: it can import younger taxpayers to help pay for the very big bill coming our way, with a neutral effect on the global population increase.

I do realise this will not necessarily convince everyone, by the way, there is room to disagree here. I'm just completely baffled as to why the conversation on immigration is not mentioning these big, long-term issues at all. It should be the starting point, for an informed decision.

Chalala we have to play the card we were dealt, which is that we inherited an overpopulated world. It's not fair, but it is what it is.

Immigration is just a stop-gap to an overarching issue.

It's a shame we can't have a halfway house and not have the immigration but have a trading agreement which is probably what my parents thought they were signing up to. I wish Blair had not let loads of
people come in 2003 and followed France and Germany who put restrictions in place.

If we did not have so many people in the country then we would not need so many schools, doctors etc, it's like a vicious circle.

I can see the popularity of UKIP increasing because if we stay the issues that are here now will still be here

I would hope labour would take a different stance and win back UKIP voters but unlikely with JC leading but I think he will be gone soon too

It's ironic that voting for what Farage is after (well not all his ideas but leaving the EU) makes him less powerful

He won't get a post in government but he will gloat but he could soon be without his main wage

Yes if we could have a halfway house, trade agreements that work more in our favour, limits to immigration from the EU, being able to control our own companies not having to work through EU regulations (like being able to bail out struggling companies) that is what I would vote but it can't happen we are either in or out

I think most Remainers, in their heart of hearts, can see that uncontrolled immigration isn't the best idea. But this isn't in the grand plans of the EU. They only care about what's best for the EU. And on balance, if people can freely move from poorer EU countries to the richer ones and therefore enjoy a higher standard of living, that's a win for the EU. The resultant reduction in the richer countries' standards of living doesn't matter.

The UK government supports Turkish membership of the European Union, as does Donald Tusk, the President of the European Commission, and Martin Schultz, the President of the European Parliament. In the last two years both German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Francois Hollande have publicly backed Turkish membership. That said, Turkey has a considerable way to go before meeting the criteria required for membership.

If Turkey was to join the EU, it would be one of the largest member states, with a current population of 79 MILLION Under Qualified majority Voting in the European Council Turkey would have about the same number of votes as the UK. It would also acquire seats in the European Parliament in relation to its size and, of course, its citizens would acquire the right of free movement, including to the UK. Meanwhile, they are being offered visa free access to the “Schengen” zone.

There has to be controlled immigration for the security of the country. Peter Sutherland WTO who they wheeled out for remain, doesn't believe in controls.
We have to look to the mid and long term for our kids. We have a responsibility.

This has to be regarded separately to refugees, we simply cannot let people die in the sea. Those that are escaping being blown to bits we have an absolute duty to assist.

Interesting turn this thread has taken.

It's one of my real concerns. Remain are, let's face it, going to win.

Turkey will, of course join in the next decade or two.

There will be civil unrest in the likes of the U.K. And Germany. The NHS will collapse. There will be them massive migration of UK's youth.

I really fear for the long term future.

The EU is utterly utterly fucked and will drag the UK with it.

The far right will flourish in these circumstances, as it did in Nazi Germany before the second world war