Is anyone else getting quite tired of being called a racist?

[Peppatina]

I know it can't just be me.

It doesn't matter what carefully thought out reasons a brexiter has for wanting to leave (I've seen some very articulate and reasoned ones on mn itself) we are still all getting lumped into a stereotypical group of closet racist idiots.

And Lord forbid any of those reasons might just involve any concern over levels of eu migration!

I've been told that I'm essentially imagining the three week waiting list for my GP or that this is nothing to do with eu migration. If I say I know it is because of the names being called out I become the equivalent of Enoch Powell.

The same goes for a certain local estate very much being a no go area, especially for young girls. After braving this street once with my children and being spat on and shouted at by a group of very hostile Romanian men/boys I've been told I imagined it.

When I had my son a few week ago my I was the only English speaking person in my ward. A polish man was shouting and being very aggressive to staff as they were struggling to find an interpreter.

I absolutely know that not every migrant is aggressive and that they should build more schools and go surgeries but I believe I'm right to be concerned about a high number of migrants who are not intergrating with their local community and the unsustainable strain on services.

I'm sick of being told that my experiences don't matter. That to even mention that this is what life is like in our town means I am a racist or little englander.

There's loads of space in the UK. About 6% is urban. Yes investment is needed in housing & public services & regions but there isn't a space issue.

Noting here that the Conservative pledge was to reduce immigration to the tens of thousands.

How much has immigration from outside the EU been reduced?

I see, our posts crossed.

Quite a bit, actually - I'll look for the graph I posted somewhere yesterday, maybe on this thread.

We need more workers (young) to support the growing elderly non working population. One of the articles I linked to mentions that.

I am actually still undecided and one of the issues which makes me undecided is precisely what you are saying about migrants op. However somebody posted a very salient comment on FB by Billy Bragg. Saying that not everyone who votes for exit is a racist but every racist will vote for exit. At the end of the day everyone who has a vote needs to resolve in their heads what they believe is best for themselves their dc and the country.

I would like the argument to be focused on the skills shortage.

If all of these immigrants are coming over here not speaking the language, with no skills and with no contacts, what exactly does that say about the people we are training.

EU Migrants come here because there is work for them to do. 80 million people won't come because there won't be work for them to do. It is histrionic to say otherwise.

We need more workers (young) to support the growing elderly non working population. One of the articles I linked to mentions that.

What happens when they get old?

We need to stop this crazy Ponzi scheme of fuelling economic growth by increasing the population, short-sighted short-termish with no concern at all for the long-term.

EU Migrants come here because there is work for them to do.

Not sure that's altogether true. They come because there's no work for them to do in their home countries.

A population growth

The argument of well we have an aging population we need young workers to look after them makes no sense. If they grow in population we then still have a growing aging population that will need looking after

Does anyone actually consider that this is not just about immigration though.

The safety legislation, workers' rights, etc.

Do you honestly believe a government would implement those of its own accord? Do you honestly think Gove & Johnson will spend that money on the NHS?

Most EU migrants go home though.

Many are young and go home when they have families - just as many British young people working abroad do.

Ouriana Billy Bragg's comment actually made me feel the opposite but each to their own. It's a shame that people can't discuss the EU in a sensible and adult way

And in return Ouriana - our new 'points system' will allow us to poach all of the best and brightest those developing nations have invested in and trained, to come to work here instead of us paying to train our own doctors, engineers.

Well done us.

I never understand the ageing population argument enthusiasm. Do the newcomers stay young. Do they not bring older family members here who use the services

Do you mean population growth in the UK, or globally? Do you differentiate here between growth via immigration or growth via birth rates?

Globally the population needs to stabilise. In the UK it needs to increase.

In the UK there are two problems with population growth via birth rates: 1) British people don't have enough children to ensure population stability, let alone population growth 2) from a global environmental perspective it's not a great idea to incentivise British people to have more children, it's much more sustainable to achieve population growth via immigration

The argument of well we have an aging population we need young workers to look after them makes no sense. If they grow in population we then still have a growing aging population that will need looking after

Yes, it does make sense. The problem is not that we have a growing aging population in absolute numbers, the problem is that the younger generations are not growing proportionally. If we import enough immigrants every year to sustain the current aging population and no more, and if women each had 2.1 children and no more (currently we're around 1.8), then the population would become stable, and we would have enough young people to fund the older population.

We need to stop this crazy Ponzi scheme of fuelling economic growth by increasing the population, short-sighted short-termish

No, the short-term attitude is to put our heads in the sand about the huge demographics problems looming ahead for Europe (and Britain).Our population is aging, we're not having enough children to even ensure generational replacement - at this rate the population will start decreasing soon, and a really top-heavy population makes it impossible to sustain decent public services (only one of many problems linked to population aging and decrease). The UK has a little more time than other European countries, but not much more.

It's a really well-known problem for Europe and Japan, and the obvious solution is to start acting now by important immigrants - but there are cultural issues associated with this, obviously. The other solutions are to increase the retirement age (but this is unlikely to be enough, and comes with other issues), or to encourage a new, sustained increase in birth rates, but a) this is environmentally problematic on the global scale, and b) it would require huge political will and a huge programme of incentivisation for it to have any effects (government programmes haven't helped much in Japan)

The demographics are pretty clear, we're going to need large amounts of immigration in the coming years just to not start dying out as a country and as a continent. That, or we all start having a LOT more babies, like, yesterday.

Or, from a different perspective: what are the Leavers' solutions to the aging of the British population?

Government summary of the problem:

the ageing population will cause a widening of budget deficits over time, eventually putting public sector debt on an unsustainable upward trajectory.

Dealing with the twofold pressures of increased demand and requirements for enhanced services is therefore likely to require both improvements in public sector productivity and increased taxation on the working population

Suggested responses are: less welfare, and/or making people work longer, and/or "encouraging immigration of working-age individuals, although this is unlikely to be seen as a politically attractive option" - hah.

www.parliament.uk/business/publications/research/key-issues-parliament-2015/social-change/ageing-population/

No doubt it will be to claim that we can no longer fund public services do to chronic shortage of tax payers, skilled workers etc and the Welfare State will shrink. NHS, social care and education included.

Nearly half of all migrants entering the UK plan to stay 1 to 2 years, not come here & settle for others.

*years

I never understand the ageing population argument enthusiasm. Do the newcomers stay young. Do they not bring older family members here who use the services

A lot of immigrants don't stay long enough to get much older.

Often they come alone, not with older family members.

Ouriana, I agree we need all the things you list. But they're nothing to do with our EU membership. The government needs to invest properly in public services and curb the trend towards exploitative zero-hours contracts.

Is it any wonder our young people are not reproducing significantly. Huge student debt, expensive housing and rubbish wages. It's a shame the government hasn't concentrated on them more.

From observation in the crowded area I live in I notice quite a few unproductive immigrants who are not EU, are given social housing and don't appear to work just have large families at the UKs expense I wish that had been controlled better

How about the government doing what France does with the women having children.

everyone wants an immigrant to come here fully 'trained' and educated
have no children
never get sick
work full time and pay taxes
then leave before they get old or die
that would make them 'ideal' but is pie in the sky thinking.