Is anyone else getting quite tired of being called a racist?

[Peppatina]

I know it can't just be me.

It doesn't matter what carefully thought out reasons a brexiter has for wanting to leave (I've seen some very articulate and reasoned ones on mn itself) we are still all getting lumped into a stereotypical group of closet racist idiots.

And Lord forbid any of those reasons might just involve any concern over levels of eu migration!

I've been told that I'm essentially imagining the three week waiting list for my GP or that this is nothing to do with eu migration. If I say I know it is because of the names being called out I become the equivalent of Enoch Powell.

The same goes for a certain local estate very much being a no go area, especially for young girls. After braving this street once with my children and being spat on and shouted at by a group of very hostile Romanian men/boys I've been told I imagined it.

When I had my son a few week ago my I was the only English speaking person in my ward. A polish man was shouting and being very aggressive to staff as they were struggling to find an interpreter.

I absolutely know that not every migrant is aggressive and that they should build more schools and go surgeries but I believe I'm right to be concerned about a high number of migrants who are not intergrating with their local community and the unsustainable strain on services.

I'm sick of being told that my experiences don't matter. That to even mention that this is what life is like in our town means I am a racist or little englander.

It's what all debates about free speech come back too, isn't it. Yes, people have the right to say what they want. Does it mean it's a good idea for them to do so? Not necessarily.

The problem with research is that you have to research the research and more often than not you will find conflicting evidence

How can the public take this research seriously when the figures show that immigration from the EU is far higher than was ever expected this last year

Why the remain haven't really gone with this is because it can't be really be proved one way or another

And read the comments below people's real experiences are not what that piece of research tells us. This has been going on for years people tell us it's changing our lives someone out of Westminster will say don't be silly it's not I have the report to prove it

And we wonder why UKIP are not the third party (in number of votes)

Devilish I don't think any Brexiter worth his salt would find the article you linked revelatory. To repeat what I said upthread a bit: I accept that immigration is a net positive to the economy.

I dismiss one of the facts out of hand (immigration has no effect on wages) - of course a major influx of cheap labour depresses wages.

That aside, I have yet to see any Bremainer put their hand up and say I want Britain to have a population of 80 million.

It's what all debates about free speech come back too, isn't it. Yes, people have the right to say what they want. Does it mean it's a good idea for them to do so? Not necessarily.

I guess then you think it's been a good thing that people who question unchecked immigration have been silenced all these years, because it's not a good idea? Or have I missed your point entirely?

Quite, Enthusiasm. I had a Bremainer pointing out that non-EU immigration is much higher than EU immigration upthread not too long ago - wrong.

Devilish that Washington Post article you linked to was interesting. An American telling us to do what's best for America .
Some good comments critical of the article, I like this one because it agrees with a point I made upthread .
with significant net migration to the UK there is a need to restrict immigration from outside the EU as much as possible. This leads to a privileging of low skilled eu workers over skilled workers from elsewhere.

I do think people lives have been adversely affected over the last decade or so - but for reasons in the Guardian article I linked to above. That does take into account the numbers that have entered the country. I would blame neoliberalism increasing inequality together with lack of investment in public services & housing for damaging standards or living. I don't believe limiting immigration would sort those issues & improve people's lives. It's a shame there isn't a strong opposition (I guess a lot of labour MP's sign up to neoliberalism as well).

Yes I take your point that the Washington post has concerns about losing entry to the single market via Britain (& one of their latest pieces states that very clearly), but that would backfire on is as well as it would be a reason to relocate businesses (to ireland maybe?)

Years ago I worked in New Zealand- times were tough, the farm I was on had gone from having eight farm hands to none (& me - working for board & lodging). They explained how their economy crashed when the UK joined the EEC & they lost their largest market overnight. This was twenty years later & they still hadn't recovered. I was reminded of that while reading the Washington post article.

How can it take into account the numbers of people when the figures are constantly under estimated and conflicting

People don't come here get a job and straight away their taxes paid covers the large number of public services we all use

And how can the government plan when they can't control the numbers and year after year have underestimated figure

Well the Guardian article makes the point that it's a lot of people in a short space of time, so maybe it doesn't matter if the figures are a bit out.

Have any of you read the Worst places in the UK thread? Page after page of run-down towns and cities dominated by poverty and worklessness, with the associated crime, dependency and mental health issues of the wretched inhabitants.

If we could turn back time and re-live the past twenty years without uncontrolled EU immigration, wages would be higher, more of our own underclass would be working, housing would be cheaper and there would be less demand on welfare and public services. Life for everyone wouldn't be perfect, but it would be a damned sight better.

I would say turn back the clock and live the lady twenty years without neoliberalism & you'd have the same effect.

I guess then you think it's been a good thing that people who question unchecked immigration have been silenced all these years, because it's not a good idea?

No, they have the right to say what they want, of course. And other people have the right to challenge them on it, which is not the same thing as "silencing" them. And these people can then be challenged right back.

The irony here is that both side are claiming to be "silenced" - one side claims the word "racist" is being used to shut them up, the other side claims that this argument is being used to shut down even legitimate concerns about racism.

*last

No, they have the right to say what they want, of course. And other people have the right to challenge them on it, which is not the same thing as "silencing" them. And these people can then be challenged right back.

No one really wants to be considered a racist, though, do they?

Once again. I have yet to hear a Bremainer raise their hand and say, I am happy for Britain to have a population of 80 million.

I would say turn back the clock and live the lady twenty years without neoliberalism & you'd have the same effect.

Quite possibly. On the other hand, neoliberalism & globalisation has lifted quite a lot of people out of poverty.

If we could turn back time and re-live the past twenty years without uncontrolled EU immigration, wages would be higher, more of our own underclass would be working, housing would be cheaper and there would be less demand on welfare and public services. Life for everyone wouldn't be perfect, but it would be a damned sight better.

Do you have a crystal ball or have you visited a parallel dimension.

I'm not sure that would be true at all. I simply think we would have had immigration from elsewhere. Immigration is largely connected to the success of capitalism.

I am not convinced that we would have seen a socialist agenda in the absence of the EU.

I think that voter apathy and popularist government has been one of the biggest reasons that 'underclass class issues' have not been tackled. There has been no political incentive to do this. The more it has happened, the more people in that position have become apathetic.

The EU has very little to do with these problems in reality.

I do think potentially without the EU and the benefit of your crystal ball, there is every reason to suggest, that life could be even worse for people in the 'worst places in Britain'.

But as a say, none of us have a Tardis to slip between dimensions so it really come down to opinion.

I don't share yours.

I'm not sure that would be true at all. I simply think we would have had immigration from elsewhere. Immigration is largely connected to the success of capitalism.

Crucially, the amount of immigration would have been within Britain's control.

I don't think that Limer's view is sufficiently outrageous to warrant the tardis/parallel universe remarks (while devilish's assertion goes unchallenged, I see). All of the things mentioned are dramatically exacerbated by more people.

They're not if more people are contributing to tax coffers (which evidence suggests they are).

I do think we are all identifying the same issues (& I hope one result of this divisive referendum is that politicians from the main parties realise how disenfranchised many feel) - but we see causes & therefore solutions as different.

They're not if more people are contributing to tax coffers (which evidence suggests they are).

But no one has addressed the finite space issue.

Once again, which Bremainers are happy to see 80 million people in the UK?

Where are the new schools and new houses and new doctor's surgeries supposed to be built?

I'm happy to see population growth, as we need a growing younger population to finance pensions etc.

Widow I'm happy to see population growth as well, but it needs to be well organised and controlled.
There should be a long term plan focusing on low population areas in the UK rather than everyone crowding into the south of England where the jobs are.

We can't achieve well organised and controlled population growth within the EU, they won't let us set any controls. Unlimited population increase is a huge problem. Would the Remainers answer Apple's question - would they set any limit at all? One million a year, five million, ten million? As the Euro continues to fail, as youth unemployment continues to grow in the Eurozone - more and more people will be wanting to move here.

Do you have a crystal ball or have you visited a parallel dimension The latter

Crucially, the amount of immigration would have been within Britain's control.

Yes Britain's control. Who in Britain?
It makes a difference.

Noting here that the Conservative pledge was to reduce immigration to the tens of thousands.

How much has immigration from outside the EU been reduced?

I think the problem comes OP when you identify problems and then attribute immigration as the cause.

You're not imagining the three week waiting list at the doctor - but this is probably more likely due to chronic underfunding, shortage of people entering GP profession.

As immigration makes up a good percentage of NHS staff and contribute more to tax coffers than they take out, I would argue they are part of the solution.

I'm happy to see population growth, as we need a growing younger population to finance pensions etc.

Interesting.

1. Where do you live?
2. Do you mean population growth in the UK, or globally? Do you differentiate here between growth via immigration or growth via birth rates?

Redtoothbrush your implication is too subtle for me to grasp!