Secret government cables leak in full showing government to give Turkey visa free access to the UK

[BritBrit]

Despite David Cameron & Theresa May denying this only yesterday the cables have now leaked in full showing the UK government is in fact planning to give millions of Turks visa free access to the UK.

What possible reason could David Cameron have to deny it!!

order-order.com/2016/06/12/read-turkey-cables-in-full/

Mass immigration from low-wage countries was politically beneficial? In what world? They knew it wasn't, which was why they lied about likely numbers and have continued to lie about actual numbers.

But so long as the Attorney General could get an illegal immigrant to do her cleaning cheaper than a legal worker, what's not to like?

The thing is that mass immigration doesn't come in a vacuum, it comes as part of a bigger package that has generally benefited the UK. You can't dissociate one from the other.

Now the real problem, and the problem Labour has failed to address, is that while the UK has "generally" benefited, the benefits haven't been equally distributed and felt by everyone. If immigration brings more tax revenue, then it should be spent on public services in high-immigration areas, not on tax cuts. Instead low-paid workers have been left to deal with the undeniable social changes, with no clear improvement to their own situation.

Either way, Labour is at fault for not having come up with credible solutions to the problems their voters were voicing.

Yeah, you sort of need to read to the end of my sentence...

the benefits haven't been equally distributed and felt by everyone

Precisely. In an "old Labour" constituency with high unemployment, I was simply told to fuck off, in terms, with my crap, in terms, about Remain.

Instead low-paid workers have been left to deal with the undeniable social changes, with no clear improvement to their own situation.

Indeed. Great idea, wasn't it, Yvette? Now our campaign material is basically "poor people? Fuck off". To quote from a leaflet I may or may not deliver this week:

From car-making and high-tech industry to financial services, jobs and opportunities across Britain are reliant on our country being in the EU. Wow, that's really selling it. Here in a city ravaged by the ending of car manufacturing, it's just rubbing in why they hate us. Why, constantly, is the financial services industry in London the Alpha and Omega of campaigning?

Yeah, you sort of need to read to the end of my sentence...

Storm they could weather? How's that working out now, would you say? Immigration, Yvette and Andy: how the weathering of the storm working for you?

There is no way Turkey are joining the EU in the foreseeable future. If they had moved in the direction of meeting EU requirements on human rights and basic freedoms, there might have been a tense discussion about it and a chance in ten years or so. But they've moved in the opposite direction, while Islamophobia has risen across the EU. All they've got is the refugee crisis as a bargaining tool and that might get visa free tourist travel but it's not going to get accession. Visa free tourist travel is not freedom of movement and Britain isn't even in Schengen, the risks are very limited.

It's not just Greece and Cyprus, countries like the Netherlands would have to block it to stop their anti-EU parties being able to force and win an exit referendum.

Re Turkey and the Cypriot issue -this makes interesting reading
www.euractiv.com/section/euro-finance/news/juncker-praises-cyprus-urges-reunification/

Oh dear. Thought it was a storm they could weather. Was worth it for the perceived benefits. Political history is littered with such miscalculations (you listed some) but it doesn't equate to a clear-eyed decision to pursue a policy in the fairly certain knowledge it would mean decades in the political wilderness.

Entirely different to a Cypriot government saying 'we will vote to let Turkey in, knowing 100% that we will be unemployed as result very soon, and will never hold office again.'

That's a really interesting one unlucky. It hadn't occurred to me to wonder why, if Cyprus is assumed to be so vulnerable to EU pressure when it comes to Turkish accession, the Commission didn't force them to move towards reunification as a condition of their bailout.

Jassy I agree that Labour probably misjudged instead of willfully deceiving, but the end result is the same - the working classes feel that they've been sacrificed as a "regrettable short-term cost" to the greater good. When you translate Labour discourse, that's effectively what they're being told - "you may not have a job, you may have a crap income, but look! everyone else is benefiting!"

Again, I don't think the solution is to get rid of immigration, I think the solution is to distribute its cost and benefits more fairly.

And I've changed my mind on this over the last few weeks, by the way, I didn't use to see the problem with explaining that immigration is a positive for the country overall. But listening to Brexit posters here, and reading about the difficulties of Labour on the ground, has been a real eye-opener.

Chalala, I don't disagree at all - my argument was about why any Cypriot government isn't going to vote for Turkish accession, and the huge difference between that scenario and eg what Labour did (knowingly or otherwise) on immigration.

I think if they hadn't agreed to the austerity - higher taxes etc (including taking money out of people's bank deposit accounts) they would have done...
And Juncker obviously wants to push for reunification - which would be more likely to leave the door ajar for Turkey...
I wonder if the government that introduced those measures got re-elected?

Oh ok sorry Jassy, haven't look at the article on Cyprus yet... was still going off on my tangent

Btw on Turkey, there's no way in hell France would let that happen

Btw on Turkey, there's no way in hell France would let that happen

There's an awful lot of 'no way in hell' countries, aren't there? Including the UK...

Unlucky - no, change in 2013. The previous administration took a lot of blame/criticism for the economic problems.

"I'm a firm believer in the maxim that the electorate are never wrong."

Really now. How does that firm belief work for you re Hitler's democratic election in Germany, not to mention the presidency of W Bush and Trump getting majority vote as Republican candidate?

and unlike the UK, France is legally bound to organise a referendum on Turkish membership

last polls were around 83% against...

If a ship tries to weather a storm, they find open sea manoeuvring room, take down sail and put up at most a trysail or storm sails, hang out a sea anchor and run with the sea. Or so Eric Newby and Arthur Ransome tell me.

Instead labour hoisted a spinnaker (which neither the swallow nor a tall ship had, but never mind) and went flat out. They called anyone who disagreed a racist and bigot, opened the doors wider and told middle England to suck it up. Most of the people now saying they would limit immigration were past Home Secretaries.

Idiots.

Chalalala the French are all EU obsessives. As are the Germans. As are all other EU state members.

We are the only country which is concerned about immigration and the issue of Turkey entering the EU.

We stand alone against the tide.

Well this is the narrative that the Leave Campaign are trying to stir up complete with images of Winston Churchill.

Time and again, we are told not to worry about Turkey as other countries will veto it. Thus is the "why risk immunisation as herd immunity is fine" argument, which is fine so long as you are the only proponent.

Why not avoid the ambiguity and say the same ourselves?

the French are all EU obsessives. As are the Germans. As are all other EU state members.

We are the only country which is concerned about immigration and the issue of Turkey entering the EU.

This is simply rubbish - sorry.

I'd add that one of the main pro-Turkey conservative politicians, until his recent "conversion", was a certain B. Johnson.

Misti. Irony?

Misti. Irony?

Hard to tell these days, toothbrush. We live in post-fact political times.

"why, if Cyprus is assumed to be so vulnerable to EU pressure when it comes to Turkish accession, the Commission didn't force them to move towards reunification as a condition of their bailout"

Greek Cypriots' refusal to reunite the island during the referendum in 2004 turned out to be a blessing for Turkish Cypriots who had voted overwhelmingly in favour. Several years later, when the economy of Greek Cyprus imploded along with that of Greece, Turkish side was left thanking their lucky stars.

Despite all the whining about the mean Turks, let's face it, Cyprus is divided because Greek Cypriots don't want to reunite. They want the Northern part of the island back, but without its ethnic Turkish residents. Which is exactly why Turkish military stepped in 40 years ago.

Just another reason why Turkey will never be an EU member. Anyone who thinks Cyprus or Greece will approve Turkey's membership is either deluding himself or has zero knowledge of the region's history.

If a ship tries to weather a storm, they find open sea manoeuvring room, take down sail and put up at most a trysail or storm sails, hang out a sea anchor and run with the sea. Or so Eric Newby and Arthur Ransome tell me.

Three million cheers for the Arthur Ransome reference! Karabadangbaraka!

Three million cheers for the Arthur Ransome reference

John and Nancy would know what to do.