If you are voting OUT on the 23rd ......

[girlinacoma]

Then what are your prime reasons (other than immigration)?

I don't think that a Brexit will (or should) have much impact at all on the immigration figures. Primarily because we will still need the valuable contribution that immigrants will bring to the UK.

I'm still voting out though as I think that the EU is a sinking ship.

I'm interested in other people's reasons though.

Sorry, to be clear, just occasionally Parliament upsets the Commission applecart.

"How do I lobby the EU? Do you think they would listen to little old me? Where would I go, can I do it on my lunch break? "

This is why I'd be a strong supporter of Welsh independence - even easier to get down to Cardiff to the Senedd and shout at lobby them .

Oh the irony of wanting to leave an "undemocratic" EU when the UK sits with an entirely unelected upper house.

Here's an article which describes how it works

uk.businessinsider.com/is-the-eu-undemocratic-2016-3

And the £350m per week is a LIE. A huge big whopper of a lie, but knock yourselves out, in your own special deluded way, if you seriosily think the UK is going to be better off.

But if you're middle class don't worry - it's the poor who'll pay. Phew.

SwearyInn - but as per above, the problem is that the real power lies with the Commission. The Parliament has always been kept toothless by the member governments.

If you had to come up with the nearest analogy to the way Commissioners are appointed, it would be life peers in the House of Lords.

Well no Sweary, its the poor who have suffered already and who will continue to suffer unless we leave.

I started off in a default position of remain, but learning about how the EU actually works and reading around the issues has persuaded me that we should leave.

I don't like the lack of democracy in how decisions are made by the EU (as described above, the people we elect can do little more than rubber stamp what is proposed by entirely unelected commissioners) or the fact that this can overrule our own parliament. I don't agree with everything the UK government does, but they are at least accountable to the people and can be voted out so have some incentive to put British people's interests first.

I am also worried about the direction the EU is travelling in, and I think it likely the whole thing will crash in the near future as the Eurozone collapses and tensions due to massive immigration, unemployment etc grow. The rise of the far right across Europe and their heavy (maybe even majority?) presence in the EU parliament we have little control over is also a concern for me.

I don't believe the EU is capable of major reform, because if it were we would have seen some evidence when David Cameron was negotiating under the threat of Brexit. I also don't think we'll get another chance to get out for a very long time, assuming the EU even survives, so we need to take this opportunity to get off the sinking ship while we can.

Even with the house of lords, who I am not aware of vetoing any major controversial decisions that go agaisnt the general public...

You can still make your voice heard, We could still chain ourselves to railings, throw ourselves off buildings, walk naked in the street for our cause, the press pick it up, people would take notice,

Nothing may happen but we can make ourselves heard.

We simply cannot do this, in the EU.

The other problem, to be honest, is that the whole interplay between the Commission and the Parliament is horrifically complicated. I've been involved in a fair bit of lobbying within the EU over the years, and I still struggle with 'codecision procedures', 'conciliation committees' et al.

If you believe in democracy, remaining in the EU simply isn’t an option

Some quotes:

"The EU does not just suffer from a democratic deficit it is fundamentally antidemocratic. Indeed, it was designed to be in the words of the former President of the European Commission, José Manuel Barroso, an “antidote to democratic governments.”"

"What greets you as you walk into the European Parliament’s visitor centre? A plaque on which the words of Lord Lothian argue that “national sovereignty is the root cause of the most crying evils of our time […] the only final remedy for this supreme and catastrophic evil of our time is a federal union of the peoples.”"

"The European Union’s lack of transparency and complex nature is a deliberate ploy to retain power for the enlightened elite, thanks to its belief in the dangers of democracy."

"It seems that the right for the people to govern themselves and to hire and fire our lawmakers, something we fought a civil war in this country to establish and a goal that millions around the world have sacrificed themselves for, has become a principle that can be bought away with supposed economic prosperity."

I don't believe better and ever closer union is something we should be involved with and as a PP said we either need to get on board with it or get out. And I choose the latter. Short term pain, sure. But long term gain. We won't get an opportunity to have our say about this issue again for a long time.

There's every chance the EU could collapse on its own at some point anyway. I'd rather be ahead of the game going it alone than battling the rest of the EU.

£350 million weekly EU fee could be spent on improving services such as NHS, Schools, housing etc.

The 350mil figure has been debunked. The Tories are not going to invest in public services they have spent the last 30 years trying to destroy them.

I really do despair sometimes...

It's not just a choice between the EU or the Tories, Ghost - Cameron is backing Remain.

There are other political parties. The Tories will rip themselves apart after this is over - regardless of the result.

"The Tories are not going to invest in public services they have spent the last 30 years trying to destroy them. "

Clearly the Tories are going to push an austerity agenda in or out of the EU. I think that it's wrong, though, to vote on the basis of today's political situation. This referendum is about the UK's status for many years going forwards. It's 30 years since the last time voters had a say on the matter, and the EU has changed beyond recognition in that time.

My ideal would be a majorly reformed EU. My concern is that an 'in' vote from the UK will give the EU the green light to continue business as usual. Hence why I can't decide how to vote, and am seriously considering 'out'.

Sadik

The Brexit campaign is based on the fallacy that problems with schooling, NHS, low pay are caused by immigration when in reality they have been caused by UK government policy over the decades.

ghost I think most people are aware that this figure is Gross and that the current net contribution is nearer £150m per week. The economics are complex and unpredictable with any level of certainty, but I think any short term pain will be worth it to not be shackled to the EU politically.

As others have said it's important to recognise that this isn't 'Nice EU' vs 'nasty tories' (not least because the EU isn't that 'nice' any more, and the government is backing remain!). If the tories destroy public services they can be voted out. If the EU introduces regulation to the detriment of the UK there's nothing we can do about it.

Wasn't the point of the £350 figure to start a conversation about how much is lost

Cries of well that's not true we get so much of it back in a rebate which of course is true so the figure isn't the amount we would have in our budget but then the question remains what's happens to the money we don't get back which is still a very high amount

The numbers stay with us that was the point of it the middle talk of we get this back for this and that has been lost

Im voting out because of many reasons. One of them being the significant cost of our membership.

This is from FullFact:

In 2015 the UK government paid £13 billion to the EU budget, and EU spending on the UK was £4.5 billion. So the UK’s ‘net contribution’ was estimated at about £8.5 billion.

fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

The money we get back comes with instrucitons on what it is to be spent on.It amounts to around a tenth of the budget for the NHS in England. It’s also enough to reduce the basic rate of income tax by 3p in the pound.

Around 40% of the money in the EU budget is spent on the Common Agricultural Policy. It is a policy which, for us, represents poor value for money. There are many ethical reasons to be against the CAP too for instance over-production and waste, protectionism killing economies in the third world.

As more poor countries join, our subs will rocket: it is basically redistribution of wealth.

Ghost - the one thing that is most likely to make me vote Remain is the Brexit campaign . . .

Sadly, the Remain campaign is almost as likely to make me vote OUT . . .

I am within a whisker of spoiling my ballot for the first time in my life.

Sadik, My concern is that an 'in' vote from the UK will give the EU the green light to continue business as usual. I suspect it will get much worse. There will be no incentive for the EU to give us a better deal if we vote to stay in. There are many reforms which have been put on hold until after the referendum namely:

The EU army. I am deeply suspicious of this. Why does a single market need an army? What is the agenda?

Replacing of the Dublin Regulation (claim asylum in first safe country) with a "corrective fairness mechanism" whereby all asylum seekers are 'shared out among all EU nations. Merkel foolishly opened the floodgates and we will all pay for her mistake.

I also suspect we will be pushed into joining the Euro because the ever closer union wont be able to function with different economies and currencies.

The Brexit campaign is based on the fallacy that problems with schooling, NHS, low pay are caused by immigration when in reality they have been caused by UK government policy over the decades

No I would say its based on the fact that services are struggling and mass immigration simply doesn't help. It makes matter far far worse.

Democracy. And yes, we need constitutional reform in this country too - especially the joke that the House of Lords has become.

The insiders have a plan and the people are irrelevant to them.

"Britain will one day join the euro, Tory grandee Michael Heseltine predicted today as he risked damaging the campaign to stay in the EU.

The former deputy prime minister - one of the most Europhile figures in the Conservative party - said there was 'no hurry' to join the single currency, which was on the verge of collapse last year during the Greek debt crisis.

The 83-year-old predicted the move would be 'controversial' and would not happen in his lifetime but compared the euro to other currencies as he said: 'It took a long time to make the dollar work'.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3561883/One-day-ll-join-EURO-admits-Tory-grandee-Michael-Heseltine-claims-Margaret-Thatcher-voted-stay-EU.html

For me it's the democracy and sovreinity issues, as well as the vast waste of money that takes place.

If we don't like out Government then they can be voted out. However, the EU is designed to be opaque and anti- democratic in my view.

I also think for it to work, there needs to be more integration and I don't believe that's in the UKs best interests.

The Tories are not going to invest in public services they have spent the last 30 years trying to destroy them

^^ I wonder if some people are going to vote because they cant get passed the Tories ie rather than make a rationale balanced vote, they just see red flag Tories.

I have noticed some commentators on TV are also like this, they refuse all issues around immigration, sovereignty and repeat robotic style, " the tories will destroy everything" over and over again. I suppose it comes with the sort of Tribal Labour voter we sometimes get.