If you are voting OUT on the 23rd ......

[girlinacoma]

Then what are your prime reasons (other than immigration)?

I don't think that a Brexit will (or should) have much impact at all on the immigration figures. Primarily because we will still need the valuable contribution that immigrants will bring to the UK.

I'm still voting out though as I think that the EU is a sinking ship.

I'm interested in other people's reasons though.

[Sadik]

Thanks, Winterbiscuit I'm still struggling to decide which way to vote!

[Winterbiscuit]

Very interesting posts Sadik.

[Sadik]

MrsBlackthorn - Norway's PM (whose centre-right party has been a longstanding supporter of membership) thinks that, but the people of Norway as a whole don't seem to agree. From the article:
"Although her party is still in favor of EU membership, polling shows only about 18 percent of the population supports the idea."

[MrsBlackthorn]

And oh dear, even Norway think being like Norway is a crap idea:

OSLO — Norway’s prime minister has bad news for U.K. Euroskeptics who hope to copy Oslo’s relationship with the European Union if they get their way in next week’s referendum.

“They won’t like it,” Erna Solberg told POLITICO

www.politico.eu/article/eu-referendum-look-before-you-leap-norways-pm-tells-brexiteers/

[Sadik]

The other practical rather than theoretical problem lies with the Commission itself. I've had a fair amount of dealings with them, and also with the UK civil service throughout my working life.

My experience of UK civil servants is that, on the whole (no doubt there are exceptions), they are competent people who are knowledgeable about their field of work. Sadly, this has not been my experience in the Commission.

I also struggle to imagine a situation whereby a major piece of UK proposed legislation would be drafted by an industry representative 'seconded' to the Civil Service, but still paid by their corporate employer. This exact situation happened recently in my line of work.
Yes, big business lobbies, cosies up to ministers etc etc, but it is less extreme.

[Sadik]

Humpty, I think you're misunderstanding. There's a very big difference between a party that I didn't vote for getting into power (sad for me, but that's democracy), and the situation in the EU.
It's not (unlike the CAP!) indefensible - there is a justifiable case for the situation whereby laws are put forwards by the Council and then scrutinised / amended by Parliament - in that it in theory maintains national sovereignty. I'd say this is less successful now with 28 Member States than it was 20 years ago.
However, the major problems arise in practice, because of the scale of the Commission, and the difficulty of access for individual citizens and smaller scale civil society groups. My experience has been, as I've said above, that essentially the process has been captured by big business, who have the money and skills to lobby in Brussels.
Obviously, the same problem is also visible at UK level (as I've said above, I'd vote for Welsh independence for exactly the same reason), but my personal view is that it is (a) less extreme, and (b) has to take greater account of the risk of seriously pissing off the population. To put it bluntly, people don't go and riot in Brussels.

[alreadytaken]

Humpty you have clearly already made up your mind to vote remain or you would not feel it necessary to insult people simply because they have not spelt out the reasons in detail. For example "ever closer union" involves the type of issues described in the five presidents report, I hope you have read that. It's here ec.europa.eu/priorities/sites/beta-political/files/5-presidents-report_en.pdf

I'm genuinely undecided, so interested in real discussion not the rubbish spouted by politicians. The quality of debate has been far better outside politics e.g. this study woodfordfunds.com/economic-impact-brexit-report/

Global warming will lead to mass population movements and it will be difficult to do anything about that either in or out of the EU.

We have little influence in the EU at present - reforming it from inside has been notably unsuccessful and as the EU expands that will only become worse. Cameron's latest negotiations shows how little this government achieves and even that little may not be agreed

I'd like to see a reformed EU but the best way to achieve that might be to vote out.

[HumptyDumptyBumpty]

Oh, posted too soon. Meant to say that there were interesting and well thought out posts, esp on CAP, farming, construction industry. Shame more of the posts weren't like that.

[HumptyDumptyBumpty]

Honestly, I don't know which way I'll vote.

What strikes me about this thread, though, is how many 'reasons' are regurgitated tabloid headlines/articles. So many cliched phrases trotted out as if they, in and of themselves, constitute an explanation for why you'd vote out.
E.g. (Paraphrasing) 'well, the EU People In Charge are all rich and they don't do any Real Work'. That's quite likely true. How does this cause you to make a political decision? Do you choose your clothes from shops where the shareholders aren't getting as many dividends as other shops?
E.g. 2 (again) 'well, the rich are getting rich and the poor are getting poorer'. Again, likely true, but is this directly caused by EU policy, and if so, which one(s)?
E.g. 3 (again) 'They are all unelected'. Right. So, because you didn't vote for them, you want to leave. Do you leave the country every time the party you voted for is defeated at election? More important question than 'did you elect them?' is 'are they doing an okay job'. I didn't elect the last government, because I voted against them. My duty as a citizen wasn't to then flounce off, but to work within the parameters to still achieve good things.
E.g. 4 'don't want ever closer union'. Okay, why not? Other than 'ewww, dirty foreign types, don't want to be near them'?

Just parroting stuff you have heard and liked the sound of rather than actually considering the content, context and implications of, isn't thinking. It's following.

It's crowdthink, and I find it depressing and disheartening.

[froubylou]

It's not the British law that is being abused. We are able to chose to be self employed in the UK. We can chose the minimum amount we work for. That choice is usually regulated by the cost of living. So we need to earn a minimum amount of money to live.

When the cost of living is much lower because your bills and family actually live in another country you can and will work for much less. That's the real problem.

We allow people to be exploited, UK jobs and trades to be taken by people from 3rd world countries. Some building sites in the UK are no better than chinese sweat shops. Happening in London and Manchester and Birmingham. The 2012 Olympics were built by slave labour.

And all those schools in Scotland that were at risk of collapse were probably built by slave labour.

The only thing that keeps us going some months is working for 'racists' who refuse to have 'foreign subbys' on site. That and patching up shit work done by foreign labour.

And we are a little more sheltered from it in the north. It will be much worse in the south. And it especially stinks when it's government contracts like schools and hospitals.

[engineersthumb]

Froubylou,
If the NMW is being abused in this way then it is the British law that needs changing and not the fault of the EU.

[froubylou]

Justchanged they are all self employed so the NMW doesn't apply. They can be paid whatever they will work for.

There are laws regarding whether they are self employed or employed but the rules are pretty clear as they should be. But it also means it's easy to manipulate them to 'prove' someone is self employed.

[Justchanged]

The minimum wage applies to EU workers, just as much as everyone else. If they're getting paid £150 per week then they're illegal and leaving the EU doesn't affect illegal immigration.

If your concern is poor wages, just look what the last recession did - cuts to welfare, tax credits etc. The UK finances are still in a bad position. The government is still spending more than it earns. Any recession will quickly make that worse as tax receipts fall, and spending on welfare rises. The result is even greater cuts to schools, the NHS, tax credits and do you really trust a right-wing government to protect those? My fear is for the school leavers and graduates looking for their first job when recruiting stops.

[Sadik]

I posted a link to a Paul Mason article earlier - he sets out the left wing case for exit really clearly. I think this quote really sums it up (and the notion of corporate capture absolutely reflects my recent personal experience of the EU within my industry):

"What the global 1% want, above all, is a political space where corporate influence can outweigh democracy. And that is what the EU’s structures offer. . . .
In addition, the Lisbon Treaty embodies an economic doctrine that is both disastrous and unjust. The treaty mandates austerity in the face of economic crisis; it mandates a deflationary preference at the ECB and prevents the Bank acting to monetise debt; it mandates a neoliberal market economy."

[fourmummy]

The gravy train, where bureaucrats make millions to shuffle paper.

Literally!

amp.twimg.com/v/2e08b2bd-e47e-4499-bbbc-7134e9c58289

[Forgetmenotblue]

This thread is really interesting. I've been a Remainer through and through, but I'm beginning to waver now. I think examples on this thread are very enlightening, esp. the building and farming ones. I'm not familiar with either industry so it's good to hear about.

[SybilEngineer]

If UK vote Leave one of two things will happen:

The EU will come to its senses, beg us to stay and make huge concessions for us

Or

We'll leave and plenty of other countries will get the guts to follow us

Of course, I could be talking rot but I reckon my predictions are as valid as any economic 'experts'

[Winterbiscuit]

Who paid for our public services before we were in the EU? The taxpayer.

Who pays the EU to return only some of our money for its chosen use? The taxpayer.

[fryingtoday]

The gravy train, where bureaucrats make millions to shuffle paper.

[Limer]

Forcing councils to become charities?

I agree about the building in the countryside, fracking and nuclear power stations - but only if we Remain, as a consequence of uncontrolled population increases.

[froubylou]

They are not legally exploitive though that's the problem.

All subcontractors are self employed. There is no NMW if you are self employed. Therefore they can be paid whatever they will work for.

Local labour simply means either the company setting on the subbY's or the subby themselves has a local address throughout the contract.

Nowt can be done legally. Hmrc come down like a ton of bricks on the construction industry for many things. The biggest issues in the construction industry right now are invoices not being paid and cheap eastern European labour.

We suffer with both and if the EU could even attempt to solve either I would be voting remain. As it stands I can only see benefit from leaving.

At least then we will be owed bigger invoices which might make me feel slightly better when my vat is due and I don't have enough money to pay it.

I just hope neither of the dcs want to go into the industry. It's soul destroying but the only thing dp knows.

[Limer]

Shocking story froubylou I've heard similar before, these practices are widespread. And it's all perfectly above board and legal. The definition of "local labour" needs tightening up.