If you are voting OUT on the 23rd ......

[girlinacoma]

Then what are your prime reasons (other than immigration)?

I don't think that a Brexit will (or should) have much impact at all on the immigration figures. Primarily because we will still need the valuable contribution that immigrants will bring to the UK.

I'm still voting out though as I think that the EU is a sinking ship.

I'm interested in other people's reasons though.

I've never voted Labour and have on occasion voted Tory in a local election.

But I wouldn't trust the Tories to maintain worker's rights if we didn't have an EU framework that they had to comply with. It guarantees a minimum. That's why so many of them want out because they want freedom to exploit people.

The EU has also done a lot for consumer rights (think your 14 day cancellation period when buying online and roaming charges). I think our current government would maintain the consumer rights ( in fact they are consulting on introducing more) but they couldn't force 28 countries to provide the same standards.

As for immigration - the problem isn't immigration, it's the failure to provide for increased numbers of people. Also the birth rate is high and that also feeds into an increased need for services and housing. A couple with four kids needs a bigger house than a couple with one kid. They use the NHS more (maybe only at the births but even so) and those kids will grow up and need housing and in turn have children. We need to be planning for increased numbers of people, not blaming some Eastern Europeans (most of whom only stay for a limited time anyway).

But how can you plan for an unknown increase in the number of people coming?

Are you suggesting that we plan for the whole 500 million population of the EU possibly arriving?

How do you know that most Eastern Europeans only stay for a limited time? I'd genuinely be interested in reading about that thanks.

I do (genuinely) hope someone can explain the argument to me about how the feeling of a lack of democracy has led to the rise of the Far Right?

Perhaps it is just a personal thing for me, but if I don't feel like I am being listened to I DON'T turn into a vicious racist thug. I have never thought "well, this isn't going my way, I should wrap a scarf around my face, set fire to some cars and attack anyone looking vaguely darker skinned than me".

I always assumed the vicious racist thugs just looked for excuses to make themselves public when they were given one by other people?

intersting perspective

*interesting

Totally safe link I promise.

There have not been people chaining themselves to railings etc is because the EU policies are protective of the people and the environment.

There have been lots of protests against the UK government because the conservatives are destroying people's rights (e.g. legal aid, bedroom tax, tax credits, fracking etc)

"But how can you plan for an unknown increase in the number of people coming?" My god, that is a really weak argument.

You use predictions - countries in the EU average migration rate birth rate etc. etc. etc. You measure how successful your predictions are against actual activity and refine them to get a good idea. It's called "thinking".

This article by Paul Mason from Channel 4 news basically summarises the reasons that I'm strongly considering voting Out.

Sovereigny and ability to be more nimble in the future. I believe the Treasury forecasts are part of Project Fear.

www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/12/brexit-vote-is-about-the-supremacy-of-parliament-and-nothing-els/

Challenge to the Treasury economic forecasts for Brexit by David Blake, Professor at City University Business School

Sorry - link fail...

another go

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2660751-Challenge-to-the-Treasury-economic-forecasts-for-Brexit-by-David-Blake-Professor-at-City-University-Business-School

Apologies but I forget your name, someone said that they lobbied there MP and held this up as a demonstration of exercising their democratic right but then went on to say "but the EU wouldn't listen to little old me". That is exactly what MEPs are for! Yes the EU is bigger but there is ample opportunity to engage. I have directly engaged with EU bodies regarding the former R&TTE directive (ok a burocratic interface not a political interface but still). I was very easily able to speak with the senior in the office charges with its maintenance - afraid I can't remember the office or title. The point is the path to engage with the EU is open... lunch hour or work day!

Out for many reasons. But mainly to try and protect our business from the ever decreasing labour rates that cheap labour from many areas of eastern Europe contribute to.

We are in the north of the country and over the last 5 years we have been priced out of numerous contracts by contractors with a workforce made up primarily of labour from eastern Europe.

We can't compete with £40 per day plus lodge. The only upside is we do get to charge a premium when we have to go back and rectify their work but that doesn't really help the industry long term.

I also have friends who are farmers and many think that they will be better out.of the UK.

We are in the north of the country and over the last 5 years we have been priced out of numerous contracts by contractors with a workforce made up primarily of labour from eastern Europe.

You hear this kind of story repeatedly, and yet the Remainers still insist it doesn't happen.

As a farmer, I'm fed up of

1 - being paid to NOT produce too much food.

2 - having to fulfil never ending and expensive EU imposed rules and red tape, pushing the price of British produce up, only for other EU countries to not bother with this and be allowed to freely export their substandard produce to us and undercut us.

I agree, WellErr, the CAP is indefensible.

Re farming - I would be very, very happy if we were producing more of our own food AND it was being processed here. I once read an article about Brussels sprouts being produced here, flown to an EU country for processing, and then returned here for sale. Completely bonkers.

However, if the red tape you speak of includes rules forbidding pesticides which are known to kill bees, for example, or forbids GM crops, I would be concerned.

Sorry, to complete my last sentence - I would be concerned if such rules were overturned.

The thing that swung it for me was actually finding out about the number of businesses that have left the UK over the last few years with EU funding, grants and loans.

We have the highest welfare and environmental standards in Europe. That's why British meat is more expensive than the low welfare imported stuff.

That's our culture. High quality care and caring for our land is British farming culture, and isn't going to change if we come out of the EU.

We are the first to take on new rules and often pre empt them. For example, when sow stalls were banned in 2013, we were already pretty much there, and complied immediately. Some countries, naming no names FRANCE BELGIUM GREECE SLOVAKIA FINLAND CYPRUS just didn't bother.
They were sent a letter after a couple of years but all except Slovakia and Finland just carried on as they were. No further action.

So whilst UK farmers had been spending hundreds of thousands (if not more) on improved pig housing and systems, pushing the welfare levels and cost of our pork production up, the non-compliant countries were merrily waved through customs to come and undercut us - because we have no power to refuse them.

When you get a ready meal from the supermarket and it says, as they mostly do 'Pork from EU countries' it will more than likely be low welfare crap.

Because it's lower welfare and therefore cheaper than British meat, and we can do fuck all about it.

And I could easily find you dozens of these examples in farming alone.

WellErr I agree. Buy British!! I went into our local butcher the other day with some schoolchildren and some of them couldn't believe that's "what meat looked like"...... Many people are so far removed from food production and the land and they just don't get it. Buy British produce.

That's our culture. High quality care and caring for our land is British farming culture, and isn't going to change if we come out of the EU.

Hear hear

winterbiscuit it definitely happens. On lots of contracts it can state local labour as part of the planning permission. This is supposed to generate employment for the local community.

What actually happens is they have a contractor in mind. They transfer the registered office address to a rented house in the area. Shove 10 blokes in the house, charge £150+ per man per day, pay the rent on the house and pay each bloke £150 each a week. It's legal slave labour and it's killing small companies like us.

We have a couple of young lads working for us on £300-£400 per week.

The blokes on £150 a week send £100 a week home. The cost of living between here and eastern Europe means they are better off working and living here in those conditions than living at home or bringing their families here. Meanwhile the average UK based family is struggling to pay bills and keep in work because there just aren't enough jobs to go around.

And we have a skills shortage in the building industry because it's not worth setting trainees on as once skilled you can't afford to pay then enough to pay their bills.

And we do have a genuine skills shortfall which should be driving prices higher. But it doesn't because you get eu gangers flooding sites with partially trained labour. One bloke might know how to build a frame. The next bloke knows how to do the fireproofing, the next how to measure and cut boards and so on. Then the industry doesn't need to invest in British training so the skills are lost.

The building industry is a vital part of the Uk economy and unless something changes we are going to struggle to build in the future.

We have been trading 10 years. Dp has been in the trade for 30 years. He says he has never seen it as bad. He was earning more money 20 years ago for less skilled work. His skill base has developed over time.

We have just turned down a massive contract because we can't find enough skilled labour to do it and break even never mind make a profit on the prices we have been offered.

It will get built by gangs of eastern Europeans living in shit holes being paid a pittance. The contractors and gangers will be quids in.

It was about 2 years work for 8-12 men. Its not going to cripple the local economy not getting that money but it could have been 8-12 families secure for a while.

And I don't mean gangs of eastern Europeans in a derogatory way. Gangs in building terms just means teams not a marauding group or anything.

I feel sorry for them and the majority of them work hard for the pittance they get. They are not to blame and just doing the best by their families.

It's the system that is wrong.

The employment practices describedaabove are appalling. But we need to prosecute the exploitative employers not leave the EU. The EU has its problems but we need to stay in and push for reform so that we can deal with the bigger issues on a world scale.

I'm out because why not? No one knows for sure what will happen either way, and I think that's reason enough for me. I don't appreciate scaremongering. I also don't have an issue with immigration. The EU will implode, be it now or later, and I'd rather opt out now and be well on our way to rebuilding ourselves by the time it does.