Name me one good thing that we have from the EU...

[Maursh]

which we would not have if we left. I am not after scaremongering rhetoric, but facts. I really like to have a balanced point of view, but I cannot for the life of me see any reason to remain. So give me some FACTS

What do they say about hoof eats, horses and zebras?

Hoofbeats, rather.

spinflight the EU cannot impose tax law - the Council has to agree unanimously. historically that means that basically no tax laws are agreed at EU level. So to extrapolate like that i's a bizarre argument, with no basis in reality.

If anything the EU leadership is realising that the European dream does not exist for many EU citizens - www.politico.eu/article/european-council-president-donald-tusk-buries-the-european-dream/

spinflight the EU cannot impose tax law - the Council has to agree unanimously. historically that means that basically no tax laws are agreed at EU level. So to extrapolate like that i's a bizarre argument, with no basis in reality

Read my post again carefully.

I am not talking about tax law.

I am talking about tax collection.

You can effectively cripple a country if you control its means of collecting the taxes that are due.

This is a simple example of how a country may well have a veto to any change in tax law but can be persuaded into what appears to be a simple administrative task that could have dire consequences for it.

I don't share the view that the EU is pink and fluffy.

If anything the EU leadership is realising that the European dream does not exist for many EU citizens

That is like saying a cat recognises that it kills birds. It doesn't stop it carrying on doing so,

The Queen.

(German)

☺️

Seriously, free movement of goods and people not good enough for you OP?

Seriously, free movement of goods and people not good enough for you OP?

It's not 'free'. It costs us £350 million a week, and the impact of squeezing 180,000 additional people into existing housing , school place shortages, and hospitals is damaging us all.

"I have been searching for something that the EU has given us that we could not achieved for ourselves for 42 years."

Goodness .

How about peace? Do you know a little bit about European history SpringingIntoAction? Do you know that there was conflict and war between the European neighbours almost all the time? here some light reading en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Europe.

I have a lot of issues with the way the EU has turned out and wish there could be a massive overhaul. But, after the two world wars last century Europeans wanted to ensure that there were no further wars in Europe, the idea was about partnership, peace, cultural exchange, as well as business. Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater how i hate this expression but seems strangely fitting here .

who said it was pink and fluffy spinflight? it's also not a pantomime villain stroking a white cat and sniggering. Whoever 'The EU' is in that case, because currently the EU includes the UK, includes our MEPs, includes our government, includes UK civil servants and secondees in teh Commission..

tax identification still falls under unanimity in the Council.

also i looked up the TIN business and this is what I saw so far: ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/taxation/tax_cooperation/mutual_assistance/tin/index_en.htm
There is no TIN at EU level, and not all EU countries have TINs.

if you have a link to the specific legislation that you are talking about i would be interested.

sorry that was to springing

Oh OP, you are funny.

£350 million a week for peace and prosperity - I'd pay double!

The EU stuff on tax is a GOOD thing. There are several EU initiatives helping governments to crack down on tax avoidance by rich individuals and businesses like Starbucks.

This can't be done by individual governments alone, because said billionaires and businesses play countries off against each other by threatening to go elsewhere.

Our Tory government has a nasty record of caving in to pressure from said tax avoiders. All alone we don't stand a cat's chance in hell of standing up to Apple, Facebook and co. No government would.

More info here waitingfortax.com/2016/06/11/leave-and-become-tax-haven-uk/

£350 million a week for peace and prosperity - I'd pay double!

Duplication of effort - you get it from your NATO membership fees

The EU stuff on tax is a GOOD thing.

Giving a foreign power the potential ability to stop you collecting taxes is a good thing? NOT ON THE PLANT I LIVE ON.

This can't be done by individual governments alone, because said billionaires and businesses play countries off against each other by threatening to go elsewhere.

So, you've just agreed that, regardless of what Dave says about not being sucked into closer integration with the EU, we cannot avoid it.

Our Tory government has a nasty record of caving in to pressure from said tax avoiders.

It's not about domestic party politics - it's abaout democrac and sovereignty. You will find your Labour/Lib/Green whatever party is equally constrained by the EU as you seem to think the Tories will be. You'll never see any true socialist laws being passed - as the EU is moving away from socialism and will prohobit those attempts.

All alone we don't stand a cat's chance in hell of standing up to Apple, Facebook and co. No government would.

You do realise that it's because we are in the EU that we allow these multinationals to have special tax status to pay tax wherever they fancy in the EU instead of paying taxes where they trade. You do realise that these companies employ lobbyists to shape EU law to suit them? You do realise that Merkel managed to get Facebook to close down comments on the Cologne problem? You don;t rate free speech then?

springing - still waiting for the link to the legislation you had in mind.

on the multinationals - you'll lose that argument because the EU is the only organisation that can and has stood up to microsoft, apple et al. and prevented monopolies.

Separation of powers

This is considered by many to be a vital part of a democratic system. In an England without the EU the only things standing between a rabid government and the oppression of the people are an unelected House of Lords (which can be overridden), a ceremonial Head of State, largely powerless local councils and a near powerless judiciary. There is no President, no Congress, no House of Representatives, no Judiciary with a written constitution to base their rulings on, no Proportional Representation and no decentralisation of authority apart from London, which has a mayor with a small amount of actual power.

Ideologically, this is one main point of the EU existing. Of course, the English are perfect and their government is perfect and so they don't ever need worry about their government getting too full of itself. Lol.

Strangely, I've barely read a single word on the constitutional benefits of being in the EU. I suspect it's because even the Remain camp are afraid to challenge the idea that the English system is perfect. All the arguments are about whether or not the EU helps us right now. No one can quite accept that the EU protects us from ourselves.

England is a nation with a massive superiority complex!

No one can quite accept that the EU protects us from ourselves.

That is the Remain argument in a nutshell.

So if we Remain I shall be safe in he knowledge that it will also protect us from Corbyn and his madder schemes.

I feel quite sick at the thought that anyone has such a low view of our country and thinks we need to be controlled by a foreign power. We've gone to war against people who thought that in the past.

Oh SpringingIntoAction of course the "EU" money I was referring to includes our money. I assumed everybody new this so didn't make a point of it; my bad. Money doesn't grow on trees. They're not printing the stuff in Brussels, but I don't think anyone who favours "remain" actually thinks this!

If you reread my post you'll see that that's quite clearly what I'm talking about I do rather know what I'm talking about on this one. As with the EU sometimes you have to defer your opinions to people who spend their whole lives working on some niche endeavour. This is a bit of an analogy for the EU; they do not "control" us, rather we choose to defer certain decisions to them because they have more resources, more combined knowledge and experience, more dedicated and educated personnel on a particular subject - and yes, we partially pay for that - so we get to use it. For our benefit.

So really, there may be many downsides to the EU which I will not shy away from, but whether or not carbon emissions management and infrastructure investment for local government in the UK is a benefit, I defy anyone to tell me it isn't a good thing. Because I know that it is.

Is it worth it to be in the EU? I know what I think, but I wouldn't presume to tell you what to to think about that, because it is an extremely complex issue. Anyone who tells you it's easy and it's obvious I would seriously mistrust.

Merkel managed to get Facebook to close down comments on the Cologne problem? You don;t rate free speech then?

LOL at Facebook being a platform for "free speech".

the EU is not a foreign power, it's a supranational power

I feel quite sick at the thought that anyone has such a low view of our country and thinks we need to be controlled by a foreign power

Not a foreign power. You don't get elected representation and votes in foreign powers.

Pie chart of government spending.....

Francis Mitterand.