The only way to get the EU to take the UK seriously is to vote to leave

[SpringingIntoAction]

Cameron tells us repeatedly that he wants to remain in a reformed EU.

Many others across the political divides also acknowledge the need for the EU to reform itself.

Some say that's why we need to remain in the EU - to change it from within.

I think the EU's refusal to engage with Cameron's plea for his EU reforms and the failure of his 'special deal' to achieve anything like the changes he originally said he wanted, show the EU is unwilling/incapable of reform.

I think the only way to get the EU to start taking our demands for reform seriously is to vote to leave.

They need to start imagining what the EU would be like without one of its largest funders - the UK. We do that by voting to leave.

The UK is in a very strong economic position, tariffs are highly unlikely the EU will do a trade deal. The EU have done trade deals with other nations e.g. South Korea, Mexico etc that do not involve free movement or fees & secure free trade. We are a far more important trading partner than South Korea or Mexico to the EU. The UK also imports a huge amount of goods from key industries in other EU nations such as cars from Germany, food from France etc

@Springing: do you really not see that what will happen is that those goods will become more expensive for people in UK who want to buy them?

@Springing: do you really not see that what will happen is that those goods will become more expensive for people in UK who want to buy them?

Your scare-mongering - not fact.

Tariffs works both ways don't forget.

If our former 'EU partners' make trade with them prohibitively expensive I am sure there will be other countries that will welcome our trade with open arms.

'They cannot afford not to put tariffs on trade with the UK for political reasons.

Nothing to do with economics then?

You think that 22 nations, which will have to vote under QMV will all vote to put tariffs barriers up for the UK? Interesting. politically, they have a problem if they do that, as many of the smaller EU member states are dependent upon UK largesse and expertise as NATO nations.

Furthermore, if they raise tariff barriers for political reasons, then why would we want to stay in an organisation that does that?

People are so quick to rubbish the arguments for Brexit, but I have yet to see one cogent argument for staying in. I don't want to be part of a federal Europe, which is where this is heading, and no-one can tell me what this is all going to look like in a decade if we stay in.

As we don't want to be members of the EZ, don't want further integration etc, what 'benefits' do we get from being in the EU? Before you spout about single markets. there ain't one in services.

' economists, banks, government bodies, NGOs, universities and think tanks have been lining up to forecast a difficult and negative future outside the EU.' Mmmm. much the same was predicted when we didn't join the EZ, and it's always interesting in these cases to follow the money and see how dependent these organisations are on EU funding for their own particular gravy train.

It amazes me therefore that many countries manage to exist outside the EU. How do they cope and run successful economies?

@scary:Cogent argument for staying in:

a vote for Brexit will lead to a decade of uncertainty, a major blow to an already fragile economy, a halt to any recovery and a return to recession. This will lead to higher prices, less investment and fewer jobs and job opportunities for the generation now entering the labour market. A smaller economy will mean lower pensions for the elderly and less spending on education, health and welfare.
(IMF, WB, G20, OECD, WTO, LSE, IFS, CBI, B of E)

Would be interested to see your list of "smaller EU states dependent on UK largesse and expertise as NATO nations"

Also @ scary: it's an awful lot easier to reach a decision by QMV than it is by unanimity. Not hard at all, in fact.

'They cannot afford not to put tariffs on trade with the UK for political reasons.

The Lisbon Treaty specifically prohibits the 'punishment' of a member state (even one that is negotiating its Brexit).

I really marvel at the warped logic of the REMAIN side. 'Stay in, we're safer. stronger and better together' , all lovely pink and fluffy enticing stiff, but they also carry a big stick and are threatening to hit us with it should be fail to obey their orders.

I would ditch a 'friend' that treated me that way.

Which article of the Lisbon Treaty are you referring to, Springing.

It amazes me therefore that many countries manage to exist outside the EU. How do they cope and run successful economies?

I think some people forget there's a world outside the EU scaryteacher

I think that you all forget that these countries aren't part of Europe, or have left the EU.

There will be tariffs, there will be no trade deal that allows free access to the EU without incurring the costs.

The deals you constantly cite are not the same as the EU free market deal, services aren't included ( our biggest export) and there are regulatory points that those exporting to the EU have to agree to. Also these deals are in the EU's favour.

"The Lisbon Treaty specifically prohibits the 'punishment' of a member state"

But it also doesn't say that the benefits of EU trade deals should be conferred on the leaving party. Outside is still outside. You can twist it whatever way you want, it doesn't mean that it will still be the same.

"People are so quick to rubbish the arguments for Brexit, but I have yet to see one cogent argument for staying in. "

That's because the arguments for Brexit are rubbish, your leaders are touring the country in a bus with the "350 million week" fact plastered all over it, which has been repeatedly disproved here, and in many other places. That's the best you have.

People are so quick to rubbish the arguments for Brexit, but I have yet to see one cogent argument for staying in. I don't want to be part of a federal Europe, which is where this is heading, and no-one can tell me what this is all going to look like in a decade if we stay in.

If there were a compelling reason for staying in the EU then Cameron and co would not be ramping up Project Fear.

The truth is that the EU is a protectionist club that is well past its sell-by date and which is actively preventing us from succeeding globally.

It wants us to remain in the club to provide defence capability and UK money and to facilitate its relationships with the US and Commonwealth, but it is proving to be a very expensive mistake for this country as the strait-jacket it has held this country in becomes tighter and tighter.

A vote to REMAIN is not a vote for the status quo. It is a vote to surrender what power this country has to an ever-expanding, ever controlling undemocratic European superstate in which our small amount of influence gets more and more diluted by each new country that joins the EU.

If you fail to agree that, you fail to understand the entire EU experiment.

If we stay they will say to us' You may as well give up the £ now that you have voted to stay in the EU.' And some rogue UK PM could, at the stroke of a pen, make a formal application to join the Euro and we will be screwed.

If we stay in our global influence will fall away as they will say to us 'Why do you need your own UK seat on the UN Security Council when you have decided to remain in the EU and France doesn't need hers either, so the EU can represent you at the UN, on the security Council).

If we stay in the EU can do just about anything they want to us because we will have surrendered power to them and must submit to whatever they have in store for us

"If there were a compelling reason for staying in the EU then Cameron and co would not be ramping up Project Fear."

If you had one for leaving then every single argument wouldn't be dismissed with project fear, every single piece of research woudln't be dismissed with vested interest.

You have nothing. Not one argument that isn't hyperbole, or your own version of project fear, or a distortion of information.

Its funny that you are so dedicated to it, and that poster after poster questions and disproves you.

Well said Springing. So much of the Remain campaign can be accurately described as Project Fear. It's great you are so dedicated to the cause and put forward so many interesting posts

You have nothing. Not one argument that isn't hyperbole, or your own version of project fear, or a distortion of information.

Lol. I have democracy and self-determination. Those things that we fought Argentina to restore to the Falklands and fought Iraq to restore to Kuwait. Things that Cameron thinks are good enough for other countries - but not for the UK.

Its funny that you are so dedicated to it, and that poster after poster questions and disproves you

Here we go - true to form the REMAIN campaigner, in the absence of any compelling argument, resorts to personal attacks. Boring,

If you actually used your eyes you would see that poster after poster does actually agree with me. It's your weal, submissive view that we must trade in our freedoms for the great God Mammon that are out of step with the British public.

You can only see the economists point of view - i.e. the cost of everything and the value of nothing. Democracy and self0determination - priceless!.

And yet Spring's entire post is merely Project Fear!

An innumerate post , proving exactly why you don't understand economics.

My post was, I reckon 2/5 rebuttal of earlier posts and 3/5 Project Fear.

I could do you a full on project Fear - but I am saving that for later in the campaign.

Oh its all project fear hover, all of their posts are project fear through misinformation.

"Federal Europe". Yet we have an agreement enforcable through international law against ever closer union and a red card as a country outside the Euro.

"Immigrants costing us millions." Disproved lots of times. Especially by HMRC last week.

It goes on and on. The milions wanting to come her eto use the NHS, the unelpoyment caused by immigration, the low wages. All repeatedly disproved yet the only argument back is vested interest or the economic warnings by a huge majority of sources dismissed as project fear.

Yet, when they get a source they jump up and down with glee, even when it is as easy to disprove as Daniel Hannan.

I'm only here to laiugh ath their desperation.

"An innumerate post , proving exactly why you don't understand economics."

Spring dear, please don't claim you understand ecomomics, its patronising to those that do.

Pots and kettles, dear, pots and kettles

So you admit it then?

Oh its all project fear hover, all of their posts are project fear through misinformation.

I'm just joining in with Cameron's predictions of Armageddon.

"Federal Europe". Yet we have an agreement enforcable through international law against ever closer union and a red card as a country outside the Euro.

It would take one UK PM to write to the EU and ask to join. He could do so without any referendum. The EU would welcome us with open arms and snatch our open chequebook from us. Corbyn is daft enough to do that.

"Immigrants costing us millions." Disproved lots of times. Especially by HMRC last week.

HMRC proved that immigration was running at up to 3x more than we thought this invalidating any 'research' based on incorrect immigration figures

It goes on and on. The milions wanting to come her eto use the NHS,

True And they don't even need to come here if they are dependants of an EU national working here they can get treatment in their home countries and charge it to our NHS. You cannot have open borders and a free NHS.

the unelpoyment caused by immigration, the low wages.

Yes, uncontrolled migration from EU member countries to the Uk depresses wages - that nice Mr Rose, leader of the REMAIN campaign said so.

All repeatedly disproved yet the only argument back is vested interest or the economic warnings by a huge majority of sources dismissed as project fear.

You only think they've been disproved because of Eu funded research that everyone can see through.

Yet, when they get a source they jump up and down with glee, even when it is as easy to disprove as Daniel Hannan.

Great guy Daniel Hannan. You should listen to him more - you might learn something.

I'm only here to laiugh ath their desperation.

That cheers me up enormously. Because it means I have hit the spot. Desperation is invoking World War 3 because your Addidas trainers are going up £17.

I am by nature / culture a Remainer, but I do agree that 'project fear' is an absurd way to anchor a campaign.

I want the facts, damn it, the facts.