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Brexit

Positive Reasons for Leaving the EU

109 replies

SpringingIntoAction · 05/05/2016 23:23

To regain our sovereignty and self-determination, which means the right to:

  1. Make our own laws to suit our country
  1. Trade freely throughout the world
  1. Control our own borders
  1. Raise our own taxes
  1. Defend our own interests

without the interference of the EU

OP posts:
Mistigri · 09/05/2016 08:16

But if they arrive as a tourist, then attempt to get a job, claim benefits or social housing, we will be able to stop that.

That's not a border control issue though. Those people have already passed through border controls perfectly legally. Most illegal immigrants are over-stayers - not people who crossed the border illegally in the first place.

BritBrit · 09/05/2016 10:26

Positive reasons to Brexit:

1-Control immigration & introduce a skills based system
2-The UK Parliament makes our law not the EU
3- Save £55 million a day
4- Regain control of UK fishing waters
5-Withdraw from the CAP so we don’t pay for EU farms
6-Sign our own free trade deals
7-We will not be signed up to the TTIP
8-Being outside the CAP provides cheaper food prices
9-Cheaper energy prices-outside the EU we don’t have to apply EU green laws
10-Introduce a British Bill of Rights-EU members must sign up to ECtHR
11- No chance of the UK joining the Euro in the future
12-We can stop future EU members e.g. Turkey/Albania/Serbia get free movement to the UK
13-We will not have to bailout Euro countries
14-We can use the money we pay the EU on Britain e.g. NHS
15-Protect UK culture
16-The UK would be an independent sovereign nation
17-We can repeal EU regulations holding back business
18- The UK can take back our own seat at the World Trade Organisation
19-The UK will not be forced to join an EU army
20-Outside the EU we can require immigrants to pay for NHS & not claim benefits/housing
21- The EU is undemocratic-Parliament will be fully accountable to Brits again
22- We could introduce a law for British jobs for British workers
23- We can charge EU students international university fees for using UK universities
24- The EU forbids state aid so the UK is unable to support UK industry e.g. steel
25-The UK can control our own VAT currently the EU set the bands

lljkk · 09/05/2016 19:40

What are the EU rules on VAT? If VAT here is usually 17.5%, how high or low could it go if we were outside the EU?

BritBrit · 09/05/2016 19:51

IIjkk the EU set minimum VAT levels of items that the UK is not allowed to go below so if for instance we wanted to lower VAT rates or scrap them on certain items we would not be allowed.The UK has some 0 VAT rates e.g. in kids clothing & the EU is currently looking at forcing us to put VAT on those items

SpringingIntoAction · 09/05/2016 19:55

VAT could be any rate we wanted on any goods we wanted - we could even abolish VAT completely - if we outside the EU.

That's the beauty of regaining control of your ability to raise your own taxes free from interference of any other power.

That's the beenfit of being out of the EU and making our own laws again.

OP posts:
Limer · 09/05/2016 19:59

Mistigri

See SpringingIntoAction's post Sun 08-May-16 21:14:47 for full explanation of the issues surrounding border control.

SpringingIntoAction · 09/05/2016 20:02

1-Control immigration & introduce a skills based system
2-The UK Parliament makes our law not the EU
3- Save £55 million a day
4- Regain control of UK fishing waters
5-Withdraw from the CAP so we don’t pay for EU farms
6-Sign our own free trade deals
7-We will not be signed up to the TTIP
8-Being outside the CAP provides cheaper food prices
9-Cheaper energy prices-outside the EU we don’t have to apply EU green laws
10-Introduce a British Bill of Rights-EU members must sign up to ECtHR
11- No chance of the UK joining the Euro in the future
12-We can stop future EU members e.g. Turkey/Albania/Serbia get free movement to the UK
13-We will not have to bailout Euro countries
14-We can use the money we pay the EU on Britain e.g. NHS
15-Protect UK culture
16-The UK would be an independent sovereign nation
17-We can repeal EU regulations holding back business
18- The UK can take back our own seat at the World Trade Organisation
19-The UK will not be forced to join an EU army
20-Outside the EU we can require immigrants to pay for NHS & not claim benefits/housing
21- The EU is undemocratic-Parliament will be fully accountable to Brits again
22- We could introduce a law for British jobs for British workers
23- We can charge EU students international university fees for using UK universities
24- The EU forbids state aid so the UK is unable to support UK industry e.g. steel
25-The UK can control our own VAT currently the EU set the bands

  1. The UK's permanent seat on the UN Security Council will be safe 27.The UK's Supreme Court will not be over-ruled by the EU's European Court.
  2. The UK can use the money it saves, freed from EU fees and red tape to attract new businesses to the UK
  3. UK public services can buy British products and reduce our imports, improving our balance of trade
  4. The UK will not be contributing to the EU grooming of Ukraine with millions of Euros, which is leading to conflict with Russia.

Sounds good to me.

OP posts:
WriteforFun1 · 09/05/2016 20:31

Springing, 24 has stunned me, I had no idea. We're not allowed to help our own industry? That's mad.

WidowWadman · 10/05/2016 07:24

Writeforfun it's also not true.

MyHovercraftIsFullOfEels · 10/05/2016 09:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BritBrit · 10/05/2016 10:15

WidowWadman it is true, the EU forbids state aid so when the UK bailed out the banks they had to apply for special EU permission to do it because it is illegal under EU law

Mistigri · 10/05/2016 10:38

The EU usually forbids direct state aid because it distorts markets. One of the most unedifying spectacles of the referendum campagn was watching the rabid capitalists at the Daily Mail suddenly discover a taste for nationalisation of the steel industry Grin.

There are other ways of protecting industries from dumping that avoid direct state aid, but these were vetoed by the UK.

BreakingDad77 · 10/05/2016 11:38

My first stab
1-Control immigration & introduce a skills based system - already exists for non EU people its very hard if you actually talk to anyone, we already have passport controls etc which you dont get in europe. Any future deal with europe would include free movment, its inescapable. The NHS though and other agencies should work better to recoup costs from other governments.
2-The UK Parliament makes our law not the EU - some of the EU laws were damned better than any thing UK has proposed.
3- Save £55 million a day - even with rebates, subsidies, science funding, tarrif savings as well as any future deal with europe would mean paying them but with no seat.
4- Regain control of UK fishing waters - was being overfished tbh
5-Withdraw from the CAP so we don’t pay for EU farms - UK farmers will lose out too - tories wont subsidise - its the defecit daaaahling.
6-Sign our own free trade deals - what have we got to offer that puts us in such a good bargaining position? thats why city panicking as they will lose trade and cross party politcial elite tied to the banking industry.
7-We will not be signed up to the TTIP - we will sign it without any bargaining as there will be panic to get those trade deals sorted "as promised"
8-Being outside the CAP provides cheaper food prices - i'm split on this either cheap imports that will ruin local agriculture or high tarrifs on imports from other countries meaning prices go up.
9-Cheaper energy prices-outside the EU we don’t have to apply EU green laws - WTAF this is a good thing we should try to be more efficient with energy, energy companies should be non profit making with profit going into wages and new technology/improvements not shareholders.
10-Introduce a British Bill of Rights-EU members must sign up to ECtHR
11- No chance of the UK joining the Euro in the future - is this fear mongering?
12-We can stop future EU members e.g. Turkey/Albania/Serbia get free movement to the UK again we need better government funded to recoup money from EU. Also employers dont HAVE to employ cheap foreign labour, they could you know pay an actual living wage.
13-We will not have to bailout Euro countries - we had to bailout banks and pay them their bonuses but not the steel industry - a uk problem rather than EU.
14-We can use the money we pay the EU on Britain e.g. NHS it will get privatised its the defecit blah blah
15-Protect UK culture - ?
16-The UK would be an independent sovereign nation - ?
17-We can repeal EU regulations holding back business We already got out of working time directive its 2016 for gods sake not 1816 I dont want to go back thanks.
18- The UK can take back our own seat at the World Trade Organisation who would we side with - see note 24?
19-The UK will not be forced to join an EU army - what UK army? both government have decimated it and we would probably still take part in some peacekepping etc.
20-Outside the EU we can require immigrants to pay for NHS & not claim benefits/housing We can do that we just do it badly.
21- The EU is undemocratic-Parliament will be fully accountable to Brits again I have no UK party that represents my views and...
22- We could introduce a law for British jobs for British workers we could but we wont as business want cheap labour -see point 12.
23- We can charge EU students international university fees for using UK universities guess so - though is it that big a problem especially if they then work in our country making up the language gap and making UK plc more competitve globally?
24- The EU forbids state aid so the UK is unable to support UK industry e.g. steel as mentioned before tories blocked this at the EU. Help could have been given with soft loans etc to modernise the plants etc in the past to make high grade products. Also in line with the WTO question above so we would petition that china is flooding the market while letting them build a rip off nuclear plant.
25-The UK can control our own VAT currently the EU set the bands -?

BritBrit · 10/05/2016 11:40

the EU control dumping the UK does not and the UK no longer has a veto it was removed by the Lisbon treaty decisions are made by QMV now

SpringingIntoAction · 10/05/2016 22:19

1-Control immigration & introduce a skills based system - already exists for non EU people its very hard if you actually talk to anyone, we already have passport controls etc which you dont get in europe. Any future deal with europe would include free movment, its inescapable. The NHS though and other agencies should work better to recoup costs from other governments.

Free movement is not a pre-condition for trading with EU member countries. Most of the rest of the world does so without giving EU citizens the right to live in their countries. The fact that we are geographically close to those EU member countries should not give them an automatic right to live in the UK. The 'free movement' was originally agreed for 'work' and services - not because you happen to fancy living in a different EU member country.

2-The UK Parliament makes our law not the EU - some of the EU laws were damned better than any thing UK has proposed.

The House of Commons library says that 60% of our laws originate from the EU.

3- Save £55 million a day - even with rebates, subsidies, science funding, tarrif savings as well as any future deal with europe would mean paying them but with no seat.

The UK is borrowing the money that we pay to the EU so they can spend on their frivolous activities, such as dancing lessons. Because we are havinng to borrow this money our UK debt is increasing. We are saddling our children and grandchildren with debt so the EU can hand billions of Euros (raised from member countries like us) to the Ukraine and put itself in direct conflict with Russia.

4- Regain control of UK fishing waters - was being overfished tbh

When we leave we will reclaim our fishing grounds and will rebuild the fishing industry around our coasts

5-Withdraw from the CAP so we don’t pay for EU farms - UK farmers will lose out too - tories wont subsidise - its the defecit daaaahling.

'Tories won't subside'? - the landowners, who are usually Tory voters. Like Mrs Camerons' father who owns hundreds of acres attracting subsidies? If we stay in the EU we will be paying farm subsidies under the CAP to some of the poorest peasant farmers in Europe, when Albania, Macedonia, Kosovo, Bosnia et al join. How will the EU (us) afford that? Farmers know their own subsidies would be cut - that;s why they (but not their union) want out of the EU.

6-Sign our own free trade deals - what have we got to offer that puts us in such a good bargaining position? thats why city panicking as they will lose trade and cross party politcal elite tied to the banking industry.

We have a lot. We are the 5th largest economy in the world. We have a lot more to offer China in a trade deal than Iceland has - but Iceland has negotiated a trade deal with China I think we'll manage just fine.

7-We will not be signed up to the TTIP - we will sign it without any bargaining as there will be panic to get those trade deals sorted "as promised"

TTIP is a deal between the US and the EU. When we have left the EU we will not be part of the EU deal - we can't be, we have left. So Leave the EU, escape TTIP. Stay in the EU and you will farmed by big corporations who benefit from TTIP - the ones who are funding the REMAIN campaign

8-Being outside the CAP provides cheaper food prices - i'm split on this either cheap imports that will ruin local agriculture or high tarrifs on imports from other countries meaning prices go up.

Being inside the CAP keeps food prices artificially high as it is a protectionist scheme that prevents food imports from other countries. Remember the butter mountains and wine lakes. It's is counter fair trade for developing countries. The EU cannot afford to extend the same CAP to the poor countries will are negotiating to join.

9-Cheaper energy prices-outside the EU we don’t have to apply EU green laws - WTAF this is a good thing we should try to be more efficient with energy, energy companies should be non profit making with profit going into wages and new technology/improvements not shareholders.

Yes, outside the EU we would set our own fuel prices and taxes.

10-Introduce a British Bill of Rights-EU members must sign up to ECtHR

I am not in favour of a Bil of Rights - a bill of rights actually restricts your freedoms as it lays down what you can do. Without a Bill of Rights the natural assumption is that you are free to do anything you like - within the law, Bill. In or Out of the EU, the UK will never be able to remove itself from the jurisdiction of the ECHR - the politicians would never pass that.

11- No chance of the UK joining the Euro in the future - is this fear mongering?

No. Cameron claims to have an opt-out. However, all it would take for any future PM to adopt the Euro and scrap the £ would be for that future PM to write to the EU asking permission to join the Eurozone. It's as simple as that and we wouldn't even get a vote on it. Watch our savings fall and our debt rise as we are sucked into that disastrous currency. And we will be if we stay in because the EU will say - why do you need your own currency? You have just voted to stay in the EU. You may as well adopt the Euro now. And that worries me greatly. It's much safer to be right out of the EU and safe-guard our currency. Greece gave up its currency and because of that it can never devalue and start its recovery.

12-We can stop future EU members e.g. Turkey/Albania/Serbia get free movement to the UK again we need better government funded to recoup money from EU. Also employers dont HAVE to employ cheap foreign labour, they could you know pay an actual living wage.

It's because the UK has one of the highest (and increasing) minimum wages in the EU that is attracting migrants. When the UK is paying £7.25 (and plans increases) and Bulgaria pays 82p an hour you would be stupid to stay in Bulgaria.There is nothing that Cameron can do to reduce that pull factor - except decrease wages, which he isn't doing -he is increasing them, Sturt Rose, leader of the REMAIN campaign is on record as saying that if we left the EU wages would rise.

13-We will not have to bailout Euro countries - we had to bailout banks and pay them their bonuses but not the steel industry - a uk problem rather than EU.

We were told (assured) we didn't have to bailout the Eurozone - and then found we did have to. Greece has said it will probably run out of cash again with weeks. It will need another bailout because it has to repay billions of Euros to its lenders in July - and will not be able to make those repayments. The Greeks are being bled dry by the banks and there is nothing they can do to stop it - because they have surrendered their currency to theEU, so have no alternative escape route.

14-We can use the money we pay the EU on Britain e.g. NHS it will get privatised its the deficit blah blah

There will be no savings. we actually borrow the £billions we pay in membership fees each year to the EU. This is money that is added to our national debt - that our children will have to repay - so we can give it to the EU to squander on useless projects, while we impose austerity cuts here in the UK. Let's stop this nonsense and start reducing, not increasing or debt.

15-Protect UK culture - ?

I think the poster means 'way of life'?

16-The UK would be an independent sovereign nation - ?

Yes. It would regain the ability to

 1) make its own laws
 2) raise its own taxes
 3) trade freely throughout the world
 4) control its own borders
 5) defend itself

17-We can repeal EU regulations holding back business We already got out of working time directive its 2016 for gods sake not 1816 I dont want to go back thanks.

Most of our small businesses do not trade outside the UK but are still forced to implement all EU regulations. That adds to the costs of things in the UK without adding any benefit. It's red tape. The UK is actually a leader in workers rights - the increase in minimum wages, more generous maternity leave than most EU countries.It the EU that is eroding workers rights and TTIP will erode them further,

18- The UK can take back our own seat at the World Trade Organisation who would we side with - see note 24?

We would't 'side' with anyone. It gives us a right to trade freely with countries throughout the world - something the EU prohibits us from doing. Having a foreign power such as the EU negotiating your trade deal is not good for your trade -the EU is compromising our trade for a one-size-fits-all 28 EU members. Take back control and trade in our country's benefit.

19-The UK will not be forced to join an EU army - what UK army? both government have decimated it and we would probably still take part in some peacekepping etc.

President Junckers has publicly called for an EU army. Our safety is ensured by NATO. The EU' already conducts military operations (stunning revelation for an organisation that is supposed to be about 'trade' only). The EU army will be the next step. We do our peace-keeping role via the UN. There should be no place in the world for an EU armed forces.

20-Outside the EU we can require immigrants to pay for NHS & not claim benefits/housing We can do that we just do it badly.

No, we can't. Under EU law every EU citizen has the right to be treated equally. They are as entitled to benefits, healthcare and social housing in the UK on an equal basis with someone who is British. The Govt may attempt to recover the cost of treating visitors. It recovered £69 million last year from EU countries in NHS costs and paid out £647 to other countries for treating our citizens abroad. Any EU citizen working in this country can claim child benefit like any other worker even if his.her children do not live in the UK. They can claim healthcare for their dependants in their home country and charge it to the NHS - even if their own health service does normally charge them for those services.

21- The EU is undemocratic-Parliament will be fully accountable to Brits again I have no UK party that represents my views and...

The EU is acknowledged as having an inbuilt democratic deficit - that's why even REMAINers talk about a reformed EU.

22- We could introduce a law for British jobs for British workers we could but we wont as business want cheap labour -see point 12.

We cannot introduce British jobs for British workers while the EU prohibits us as under EU law every one is equal so there are no 'British' workers - just EU citizens and no 'British jobs' - just jobs that are currently available in the EU's British territory. The EU send the UK an uncontrolled stream of cheap migrant labour that depresses wages within the UK.

23- We can charge EU students international university fees for using UK universities guess so - though is it that big a problem especially if they then work in our country making up the language gap and making UK plc more competitve globally?

It is a big problem as EU students can apply to Student Finance for UK funding for their courses, adding to the UK debt. I want students with skills to remain in this country too but I do not want to favour EU students over students from throughout the world who may have the skills this country needs but who are forced to return home at the end of their courses if they cannot meet the £35,5K salary qualification to remain in the UK.

24- The EU forbids state aid so the UK is unable to support UK industry e.g. steel as mentioned before tories blocked this at the EU. Help could have been given with soft loans etc to modernise the plants etc in the past to make high grade products. Also in line with the WTO question above so we would petition that china is flooding the market while letting them build a rip off nuclear plant.

Outside the EU we could set our own tariffs to stop the country being flooded with cheap steel, we could subsidise our critical national industries, we could 'Buy British' instead of having to open purchases to competition and import foreign equivalents that adversely affect our balance of trade. When . if a Labour Govt comes to power it will find what it is able to do severely restricted by the EU. No re-nationalisation. No British subsidies. That's what happens when you let the EU rule over you.

25-The UK can control our own VAT currently the EU set the bands -?

No the EU states the width of the bands. The EU may allow the elected Prime Minster to zero VAT rate Tampax if he asks them nicely. Having to ask the EU to be allowed to sell VAT-free Tampax is an example of where we do not control our own VAT.

If you have a gloomy view that Labour will never again be electable and the EU will be your saviour you are very wrong.

The EU is not for the average worker - it is for big corporations, banks and hedge funds whose 30,000 lobbyists in Brussels ensure the EU passes laws that favour them - not the average worker.

That's why its the big corporations banks and hedge funds that are gleefully funding the campaign to get you all to REMAIN in the EU. They want to farm you.

We seem to have forgotten the banking crisis and the tax dodging of big corporations - why on earth would we want to take their advice and REMAIN in the EU?

No thanks. I'm OUT.

OP posts:
BreakingDad77 · 11/05/2016 10:27

I can see where your coming from springing and if I actually believed politicians would bring in all these great ideas then I would be with you but all I see is opening the door to unfettered conservatism.

The 2015 elections were noted as being the most mis-representative, after all the austerity russbish they got back in with a greater lead and we have the situation where people are comfortable with taking money off disabled people while giving tax breaks to others.

Democracy in the uk is broken, leaving the EU wont make it any better, if anything for me it will be worse.

Winterbiscuit · 11/05/2016 10:35

If the British people don't want the Tories then that's what the next general election is for. I think people voted for them last time because they were the only party offering a referendum on the EU.

SpringingIntoAction · 11/05/2016 11:00

Thank you for considering the points I made so positively BreakingDad.

The difference is that if we leave the EU we will always have the opportunity to change the Government if there is a popular will to do so.

Even if the popular will of the British people to change the unelected EU politicians is overwhelming, they cannot do so.

It is sad to think the British people could be throwing away their democratic rights because the Tories are unpopular and Labour have chosen themselves another unelectable leader.

That will not always be the case - UK politics can change - bit Britain will never be able to change the EU ( we tried and failed) and its voice in the EU will continue to decline as new countries join the EU.

This may sound flippant - but think about it seriously - what would happen if the UK was treated by the EU member countries in the same way that it is treated by the voters in the Eurovision song contest -we are not popular - we could be punished by the EU - Cameron has already intimated it could do so - there is nothing we could do about it - that's what happens when you hand control over large aspects of our country, to an unelected foreign power - the EU.

OP posts:
Kelandry · 11/05/2016 11:33

Has anyone seen the latest 'rules' about toasters and kettles that the EU tried to keep quiet until after the referendum? Nice that the uk are being deliberately deceived with regard to their intentions for our future. What else are they hiding?

BreakingDad77 · 11/05/2016 12:30

If the British people don't want the Tories then that's what the next general election is for.

But its not though is it, some constituencies are , labour or tory no matter what, and voting make absolutely no difference year on year.

The general election is for SOME swing constituencies to decide the government of the UK.

SpringingIntoAction · 11/05/2016 17:17

But its not though is it, some constituencies are , labour or tory no matter what, and voting make absolutely no difference year on year.

The General Election is usually won by a small number of swing constituencies, but, there can also be landslides.

If you vote for the EU simply because you feel your favourite political party will never be elected, you are voting for the end of democracy - because you will not find that democracy in the EU.

If you cannot get your favourite political party elected then you need to consider why? Perhaps its message doesn't appeal? It is possible for parties to win on their appeal - like at the Greens in Brighton. Look at Blair's New Labour.

What makes you think the EU is going to deliver or even protect the things you value? Austria is moving rapidly to the fra right, AfD is rising in Germany. That soft and fluffy pink EU you are padlocking yourself to and throwing away the key could quite easily be a right-wing facist dictatorship. Then what? Still happy to have the EU in preference to being able to vote out your national Government

No thanks

OP posts:
BornFreeButinEUchains · 11/05/2016 19:14

The EU is an empire I don't want to be part of a large cumbersome Empire.

I want sovereignty, the ability to tailor what we need to prosper to our needs. I loathe being shackled to this monolithic beast.

BornFreeButinEUchains · 11/05/2016 19:17

That soft and fluffy pink EU you are padlocking yourself to and throwing away the key could quite easily be a right-wing facist dictatorship

After everything history has taught us, this ^ is a very real possibility.

The Tories have tried to implement some ridiculous policies, many of them have been over turned. Pressure from inside this country has done that.

BreakingDad77 · 12/05/2016 11:49

Blair won by promising diet-conservatism, so though the party in power may change the politics are the same.

What makes you think the EU is going to deliver or even protect the things you value?

It has tried but our governments seek to get exemptions from them, e.g working time directive etc.

What I definitely do know that people like IDS (remember he was behind producing fake "I love being sanctioned leaflets" etc) will do once they get in power and that is a very scary thing indeed.

For me personally it wont make much difference, but I have had enough of the right-wing war on the disabled or those that have had their industries trashed to move them from skilled jobs to min wage's.

Winterbiscuit · 12/05/2016 13:14

though the party in power may change the politics are the same.

Blair lost a lot of support later on. Corbyn is very different from Blair and although I don't think he's a great leader it does show that things move on.

Why do you think politicians from around the EU would be any more/less competent or honest than those in the UK?

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