The EU Referendum is nearly upon us.........23rd June.

[Daisyonthegreen]

I have been invited by other posters to start a new EU Referendum Thread as the EU thread "In out shake it all about what to vote in the EU referendum "is now closed.
Anyhow this vote is is pretty crucial for the good of the country and your family.
I make no secret of the fact I feel to vote to Leave is the best option.
On the "In out shake it all about,what to vote in the EU Referendum " Thread I posted many links and gave views on why I feel that way.
I feel we would flourish free of the beaucratic ,undemocratic organisation it has turned into.
A Trading block initially started up with 9 countries in the 1970s has become out of control,mammoth and unwieldy and frankly rather dangerous.
We need to wrest back control of our own country,our borders and our ability to broker our own Trade deals which the EU insists on doing for us.
Plus our own Judicial decisions.
We on leaving would still Trade with the EU,they need us more than we need them actually but the beauty of it we could be free to broker our own deals with the rest of the world on our terms.
In short we would flourish.
We can love/ like Europe but not be in the EU.

Yes of course, you sound like OP on another thread who told me I knew nothing about Islam! Jeez.

Widowedwad an
I am saying if people claim to have a stake in the UK then why do they make fun of UK tests.
It doesn't add up
Please, there is no need to swear.

"Budgets don't fall out of the sky; they are politic decisions: taxation in this country is scandalously low, particularly corporation tax."

Earnings for most people are scandalously low bearing in mind how much rent and utilities cost; taxation is high; we pay 20 percent VAT and a huge amount of Stamp Duty, VAT on items which should not even be taxable. What you are suggesting is tax the working population more in order that more migrants can receive better services from hospital and school. There is not enough space in any large hospital to accommodate more frequent appts because the number of users is so large, or to lay on more clinics. Waiting time for OP appts used to be 12 weeks, they are now 20 weeks. There just are not enough days in the week, hours in a day.

Some depts in my teaching hospital can only give appts for the difficult cases; those that are at the beginning of a medical condition, or are moderately affected, may not even get a look-in. They do not get to see a specialist for a long time and have to stay with the GP. Their condition has to get worse before they can see a hospital specialist.

CutTheWaffle
Well said,from someone who obviously knows from inside the besieged NHS.

And all this is not the fault of the EU or immigrants (many of which work in the NHS) , but the government's ongoing underfunding and ill-thought out policies.

How dare you talk in this disparaging way of your fellow citizens and ultimately of me and my DS

Get over yourself, Madam, and go back to bed.

Horrifying:Immigrants are fighting immigrants in Paris.
Europe is in a mess.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3543237/Video-Stalingrad-Metro-Paris-shows-violent-clashes-erupt-migrant-camp.html

Oh dear. We dont know what this fight is about yet, but the EU has imported many sectarian longstanding feuds between these communities. Sunni against Shia, Sunni against Yazidi, Sunni against Ahmadi, both of them against Western way of life. My father always said there would be problems.

Massive problems will arise if we do not LEAVE this madness that is the EU.
I'm a mum and I don't want this in my country.
We must have stringent border control.
With £350 million a week going over to the EU saved by leaving we could have exemplary border control,choose carefully who comes in and admit a certain amount of GENUINE asylum seekers and have change leftover for pot holes on our roads and farmers etcetera.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3543237/Video-Stalingrad-Metro-Paris-shows-violent-clashes-erupt-migrant-camp.html
See two posts above.

Hovercraft
Stop being disingenuous.You fool no one.No sane person wants this in their country.
See posts just above mums, for reference.

Still waiting on the stat for the number of rulings that go against the UK from the EU.

Fact check have it at 10%.

Oh btw on the "not able to influence thing" we have a larger vote than we would do "democratically", if each country had an equal vote it would be 4.1% each. The UK only needs to get two other countries to be onside in votes in order to have them vetoed.

Oh and I'll leave this study from the University of Oxford here:

"We find that immigration reduced waiting times for outpatient referrals and did not have significant effects on waiting times in Accident and Emergency (A&E) and elective care. However, there is evidence that immigration increased waiting times for outpatient referrals in more deprived areas outside London. These effects are concentrated in the years immediately following the 2004 EU enlargement and vanish in the medium-run (e.g., 3 to 4 years)."

www.nuffield.ox.ac.uk/economics/papers/2015/giunt_nic_silva2015.pdf

Stop conflating EU immigration and refugees too, this happens all over this thread, its either disingenous and trying to sway the argument with something emotive, or displays a distinct lack of understanding.

MyHovercraftIsFullOfEel

"The UK will negotiate an agreement that suits the UK."

That will work fine if the UK is negotiating with the UK.

I think you are misinterpreting what I meant. I meant rather than the EU negotiating on behalf us and the other 27 counties which means none gets the best deal for itself because they all have different needs, the UK can negotiate terms which suit her best. Not just with the EU, but the rest of the world. At the moment, the EU is our mouthpiece for all of our trade and be definition, these agreements can't all be in our best interest.

"However, the UK will be negotiating with the rest of the EU, and to have the benefits you seem to think we'll be able to magically get would require the remaining 27 countries all to agree to a change in the fundamental rules of EU membership.

Not going to happen."

How come the US and Canada have trade agreements with the EU but do not have the free movement of labour and political union elements included?

The EU relies more on us for trade than other other way round. And also, if the EU stops trading with the EU everyone loses not just the UK. That is why the nonsensical argument that the UK will be left in the cold while the EU gets on with is does not stack up.

"How come the US and Canada have trade agreements with the EU but do not have the free movement of labour and political union elements included?"

The US trade deal is being negotiated right now, just a small thing called TTIP. However the US and Canada don't share borders with the EU, and a smaller % of their overall trade is with the EU.

"The EU relies more on us for trade than other other way round."

Stop saying this. Let me repeat 15% of all EU exports come to the UK, 44 % of UK exports go to the EU. Outside of the EU we end up with WTO tariffs placed on our goods in many other countries too.

There is to be a distinct lack of imagination on the part of some people on this thread.

It is 100% possible to have a stake in a country / a community etc and yet to find many aspects of this same country funny / disagreeable etc. The idea that in order to 'have a stake' in a country (in the country where I live and raise my child, by the way) I have to find nothing about this country funny, is ludicrous. There are plenty of things in the UK that I disagree with. As in the country where I came from, by the way.

Do you like everything about the UK Daisy?

I also have a sense of humour (usually). The questions in the Life in the UK test are ridiculous as anyone would tell you. I lost 3 precious days of my life studying for it, and wouldn't do it again.
But I imagine that someone who dislikes foreigners, wanting fewer of them as they 'drain our resources' might have an issue with seeing such things.

*CuttheWaffle, you get over yourself, saying such shameful things eg 'we foreigners' 'drain YOUR resources'. I will always and have always had a problem with xenophobia and will not get over myself thank you very much. If you don't see this as xenophobia, what do you think it is?

Are we back on the all Brexiters are xenophobic angle? Zzzzzzz

Been said on there threads time and again the issue of immigration is about allowing in people that are either genuine refugees or those that are a benefit to the country.

The EU actually restricts the number of non-EU skilled workers we can accept.

I am pro-immigration but the immigrants we want not those we are told to take.

HelpfulChap, not all Brexiters are xenophobes, no. I think many have very different reasons to want out.

(I'm really not sure what those other reasons are though as immigration comes up again & again in various shapes & guises).

But yes I accept its not the only reason. It is however a very serious problem, not just in this debate but in the ugly way in which the discussion around immigrants has recently been framed in this country. Racism & xenophobia are definitely not sleep-inducing. They are important topics for discussion.

Lurked101

"Three: Your point about "unskilled" labour is understandable, you say about driving down wages for British workers. But 65% of the EU 14 workers that are graduates and about 25% of those who come from the EU 8. So the level of "unskilled workers" is relatively small when you consider that 1.4 million immigrants are from EU8 countries, so around a million workers are going to be considered to be "unskilled" but then we have to take into account all the plumbers, brick layers etc that are from these countries so then you get an even smaller amount. As a % of the workforce their influence is very small."

So if there are 1 million unskilled workers and among them there are plumbers, brick layers etc and we don't have a shortage of these skills, then it stands to reason that there will be more plumbers, brick layers etc chasing the same number of jobs thus putting downward pressure on the charge out rates of these trades too. Of the ones that don't get the jobs, they'll be on the dole. Bad for the country having to support the unemployed trades people and having to put the now poorer trades people on income support. Supply and demand always sorts out the value of any commodity (unless distorted by distorted by such mechanisms as the minimum or living wage). The minimum wage has been introduced because there is such an oversupply of cheap labour that the government has had to impose a minimum wage. That in itself is an indicator we don't need any more unskilled labour or trades people where there is already sufficient or over supply of labour.

Agreed. But the 'debate' always ends the same way. Certain posters affirming that Brexit voters are xenophobes (used to be accusations of racism but MN seem to have clamped down on those unfounded allegations) and Leavers denying it.

I have seen pto-Brexit MuslimsforBritain and Sikhs on my twitter feed today. Are they racist as well?

The minimum wage was implemented before EU8 accession with the aim of giving workers a fairer level of pay. The new raise was really to do with the fact that GO was cutting tax credits etc, it was a political move so that he could say that he was making work pay.

There aren't any unskilled migrants taking jobs from British nationals, really, they are filling a gap. My point about non skilled was that a large number of them aren't "unskilled" many of them are filling jobs in which we have skill shortages or issues with geographic immobility of labour.