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Ethical dilemmas
Original poster

Would you have intervened? I like to think I would have been brave enough....

96 replies

ettieb · 09/03/2023 17:19

I was on a tube train in London at the weekend and there was a chap who obviously was suffering from severe mental health /addiction issues and was abusing other passengers. He particularly targeted a couple opposite him who were middle aged, he was shouting at them about God and then called the woman vile and ugly and kept shouting at her and asking her why she was wearing a mask. Everyone just pretended everything was fine and ignored him. He then got up and moved over to a young woman who was sitting in the seat next to the door, he was shouting in her face, she got up and started moving away and he went to follow her. She was obviously frightened. A middle aged woman then blocked him from the young woman and asked him why he was shouting at her and could he see she was scared. He then started shouting at the woman who intervened and was telling her to mind her own business , after a bit of shouting she told him to get off the train - to my surprise and I suspect the other passengers he got off the train. I was full of admiration for the woman who had intervened when everyone else was ignoring the situation, she put herself in a potentially dangerous situation on behalf of a stranger. I was at the other end of the carriage but could have moved over to help the young woman.... I really like to think that if no-one else had intervened, that I would have done something but I'm truthfully not sure that I would have been brave enough. I am aware of the term 'the bystander effect' and this was an example of this. Somebody expects someone else to resolve a situation (I'm including myself in this). Would you have intervened?

OP posts:
user1471453601 · 09/03/2023 19:00

A couple of years ago my daughter intervened in what turned out to be an attempted rape. It was the early hours of the morning, with no one about.

Yes, the scrote could have had a weapon, and it could have ended up with two women dead. But she still did it.

When the police officer she was giving her evidence to congratulated her on her bravery, she said she wasn't brave, just menopausal.

Make no mistake, I fully realise I could have lost my daughter that morning, but I wouldn't dissuade her from doing the same thing again.

VioletSki · 09/03/2023 19:02

I was once on a train when a man started trying to touch me and speak to me in an inappropriate manner. I was very young at the time and didn't know what to do so I just kind of looked away and didn't say anything.

No one did anything. The train was busy and there were plenty of men around, everyone could clearly see what was happening although they pretended not to.

Because of that I will always try to help someone if they're in a situation like that. I have done so twice and each time the person has backed off. I know that's not always the case and I could be putting myself in danger; but, I could never just stand by and do nothing.

Crumpetdisappointment · 09/03/2023 19:02

wow
i would have been worried about a knife or other violence from him

FloydPepper · 09/03/2023 19:03

AppleKatie · 09/03/2023 18:07

i do think the grown men in the carriage who did not intervene bare some culpability though- it’s not just down to women to stop men abusing women.

All the women posting they wouldn’t intervene and it’s the men who didn’t that you’re highlighting.

im not sure. I think if it’s verbal I’d just watch closely but if it turned then yes I would.

im a bloke. Women can stand up to a man and he wouldn’t attack them but as soon as another man does he’s a valid target.

OriginalUsername2 · 09/03/2023 19:04

I would have wanted to but my own family would be in my mind and stopped me. If I’m gone my family are fucked.

Ever since I read about that little boy being thrown of a huge building in France I’ve realised some people are unbelievably, shockingly dangerous and deranged.

WiIson · 09/03/2023 19:06

im a bloke. Women can stand up to a man and he wouldn’t attack them but as soon as another man does he’s a valid target.

I think this can be true sometimes, depending on the circumstances.

applebee33 · 09/03/2023 19:07

It's a really sad world we live in these days but I understand how afraid people are to get involved . A friend of mine 20 yrs ago saw a man beating his partner after the pub , he intervened to help the lady and they both beat him to death . That's what he got for helping

Crumpetdisappointment · 09/03/2023 19:08

i agree @FloydPepper

nocoolnamesleft · 09/03/2023 19:11

I once intervened when a (presumably drunk) couple of football "fans" on a train started giving racist abuse to a lady in a headscarf. Could have gone very badly wrong, though.

ironhelp · 09/03/2023 19:12

Greenfairydust · 09/03/2023 18:40

The way to intervene is to pull the alarm on the train if he was being threatening and scaring people and to let staff deal with it at the next stop and defuse the situation. They can call for support from the British Transport Police if needed.

If you pull the emergency alarm, doesn't it stop the train immediately and that Would actually confine you in with him.

Bridgingthefeckingmassivegap · 09/03/2023 19:16

I would and have where I live (Glasgow), but not a chance I would in London! If it were a group of guys however, that's a different story and I probably would have just helped the girl if I could have.

AppleKatie · 09/03/2023 19:20

@FloydPepper are you joking?

Women saying they wouldn’t do it because they are afraid and I’m wrong for highlighting men?

yes men might be more at risk of a punch in some circumstances.

women are also at risk of a punch, a stalk, a rape and a murder.

Have you seen the news today about the murdered women?

The man picked on the people in the carriage he felt were most vulnerable- 1 man and 2 women. That’s not a coincidence.

He also backed off quickly when challenged by someone he perceived to be stronger who did intervene. There were men in that carriage stronger than that women who intervened.

Yes I do think they should have done and NO I don’t think physically smaller women should feel as guilty for not doing so.

Anothernamename · 09/03/2023 19:26

I would have.
I intervened when a man was being aggressive to his wife and toddler in a busy city centre and pushing the mum, calling her all sorts of names and trying to snatch the crying child out of her arms. I intervened when men and other people walked past.
The man became aggressive with me but I was on the phone to the police by that point and I told him so.

I just feel if everyone intervened then the aggressors would stand less of a chance. I cannot simply watch these situations unfold and mind my own business.

thenightsky · 09/03/2023 19:29

Eightiesgirl · 09/03/2023 18:53

I once confronted a group of about 10 teenage lads who were shouting through the house window of an old lady who lived there. She was just stood in the window watching them and she looked absolutely terrified. I approached them and told them to go away and leave her alone as they were frightening her. They were aged about 13 and I was a 37 year old woman. They immediately turned on me and all chased me down the road. I was terrified and ran to my mums telling them that I was going to call the police. They just shouted abuse at me from my mums driveway. I came to regret intervening as after that they targeted my mums house for months afterwards, banging on the door and egging her doors and windows, thinking that I lived there. In hindsight I wish I'd just phoned the police and not drawn attention to myself. My mum later sold her house to a giant of a man, whose hobby was tractor pulling and messing about with chainsaws. I'd have loved to see their faces when they were next causing trouble and they met the new homeowner!

My God, that is terrifying! Shock

VioletSki · 09/03/2023 19:29

applebee33 · 09/03/2023 19:07

It's a really sad world we live in these days but I understand how afraid people are to get involved . A friend of mine 20 yrs ago saw a man beating his partner after the pub , he intervened to help the lady and they both beat him to death . That's what he got for helping

I'm so sorry. That's so sad :(

OriGanOver · 09/03/2023 19:30

Yes I would have.

I'm really good at descalating conflict. I wouldn't have stood up for the women but I would have intervened and got him help/got him off the next stop.

IWineAndDontDine · 09/03/2023 19:38

AppleKatie · 09/03/2023 18:07

i do think the grown men in the carriage who did not intervene bare some culpability though- it’s not just down to women to stop men abusing women.

I don't think that's fair, someone intervening could have escalated the situation, and my husband isn't stab proof. In fact, I'd have been annoyed if he would have intervened.

I intervened once on a bus when two teens were fighting, but they weren't listening and one pulled a huge knife out on the other. Glad I didn't shout louder to be honest.

harriethoyle · 09/03/2023 19:40

Yes. I would and I have. On the tube and a woman with a hijab was being verbally abused by a drunk man. Moved seats to sit next to her, told him to stfu and then talked quietly to her, asking if she wanted to get off the tube and I'd wait with her for the next one or I'd stay on til her stop.

Similarly when I had my arse groped on the train and no one nearby (all men) assisted me when I shouted at my assailant, the policeman who boarded the train to arrest him a couple of stops up the line got back on afterwards and scolded the useless men asking what if I'd been their mother or sister! It was brilliant 😆

WiIson · 09/03/2023 19:42

yes men might be more at risk of a punch in some circumstances

Or being stabbed. People aren't stab proof.

WiIson · 09/03/2023 19:44

IWineAndDontDine · 09/03/2023 19:38

I don't think that's fair, someone intervening could have escalated the situation, and my husband isn't stab proof. In fact, I'd have been annoyed if he would have intervened.

I intervened once on a bus when two teens were fighting, but they weren't listening and one pulled a huge knife out on the other. Glad I didn't shout louder to be honest.

Show quote history

Yes.

SarahAndQuack · 09/03/2023 19:56

I am sure I'd often get it wrong about intervening, and I would always weigh it up depending on circumstances. But, FWIW, something I have been told (which I think really does work) is that a good way to intervene is not to take direct issue with someone being violent/aggressive, but to engage with the person they're targeting in a friendly way. So you could go up to the younger woman and smile and say 'Hi! I haven't seen you in ages - what's brought you in today?' Then he gets the message that you know each other, and you haven't been aggressive to him.

TangledBlue · 09/03/2023 19:57

yes men might be more at risk of a punch in some circumstances.

women are also at risk of a punch, a stalk, a rape and a murder

What about the man who was stabbed to death in front of his son by another passenger on a train a couple of years ago? There are many more males than females who are murdered by a stranger each year in this country. It's very unfair to attack men for being fearful in a situation like this.

Pepsipepsi · 09/03/2023 20:00

Finished with Mumsnet for the evening then immediately saw this on Reddit 😂 what are the odds it's the same people involved? This is why I wouldn't get involved.

Would you have intervened? I like to think I would have been brave enough....
endoftheworldniteclub · 09/03/2023 20:03

Kitcaterpillar · 09/03/2023 18:16

It's interesting you say you'd like to think you would intervene, despite the evidence that you wouldn't?

My first thought too. Op wouldn’t, and wasn’t even close to intervening. Not saying it’s wrong..

TheWayTheLightFalls · 09/03/2023 20:17

I would and I have. More likely to speak to the woman, keep her attention, suggest we step off the train together etc.

I once ended up following two drunk (I think) people, a man and woman, a far way up the road from the pub they’d just left (I had just pulled up to meet a friend). The way he spoke to her, grabbed her wrists, pulled her despite her protests, combined with the drunkenness, set off major alarm bells. I went over to her to ask her if she was ok, and he wouldn’t let her answer for herself. Got angrier. That probably wasn’t the right thing to do. Then rang the police and followed them up the road at a distance to get a sense of where they were headed and get a proper description.