To have or not to have surrogate children

[BNEQLD]

Hi everyone, G’day from Australia. New to mumsnet, and first thread. Please go easy on me

I’ll try to be brief and to the point. I’m 28, male, and in a SS relationship. My DP and I have been together for 3 years and still going strong. My DF and DM are early sixties and late fifties, and my only sibling DSis is 30, recently divorced.

The idea of fatherhood (parenthood in general) has been cropping up more frequently these days, and I realise that with my sister newly single and given a transfer to Tasmania, she’s 100% career focused (and rightly so). That means children from her side are likely 10 years away at best.

As surrogacy is illegal here in Queensland, my DP and I have limited options if we want to have kids of our own. We’ve talked about it briefly once or twice, but it will be some time before the subject will be taken seriously, and plans made.

As my parents have only two children, I get the feeling that my parents would like to see grandchildren in the near future. DF is 63 and DM is 58, so obviously not getting any younger. No hint in the slightest has been dropped of wanting grandchildren just yet.

My dilemma is; Do DP and I go through the rigmarole of adoption or foster parenting? Do we risk having a surrogate anyway, and take what comes? At this time I feel it would be more for my parents benefit that my own, but that may change in the future. Also bringing a child up in today’s world is no easy task, and I don’t think I’m ready yet.

I feel like I need a mothers perspective on this.

Please don’t. You are renting a woman’s body. It’s honestly really shit when you think about it. Pregnancy changes a woman irreparably and is often fatal. That’s not hyperbole, maternal outcomes even in this country are dire.

I used to think surrogacy was a lovely, humane endeavour, but really there’s no sugarcoating the fact that you are buying the right to put a woman (often a woman in desperate circumstances) through a life changing ordeal.

Please adopt, or foster. But when you’re ready, not to make your parents happy.

There is no way you should be considering having children for the benefit of your parents. Leaving aside all question of surrogacy (which is not necessarily an easy solution for everyone involved) or other options, parenting is a hard, hard job, and if you and your partner don't want to do this for your own sakes, you're mad to even consider it.

If you don't feel ready then don't. It's clearly not going to happen accidentally for you as it does for many straight couples so you have the advantage of being able to be sure before setting off down this road.

Stay away from women, we are not rent a woman and only the most desperate would ever agree to carrying another’s child for money.

Rent a womb*

Don't create a human being so your parents can be grandparents. Your parents might not care about having them.

And it’s really bloody funny how it’s always men on here wondering how to go about renting out a woman’s body to have children despite clearly stating he doesn’t really want them.

Your only 28 and you haven’t been in a relationship that long for these life changing decisions.

Having children for your parents is not a wise idea and shows a lack of maturity and understanding on you behalf about what parenting actually is.

Also surrogacy and fostering/adoption are long gruelling and emotionally draining processes and a decision to do this needs to be made with your GF and not random strangers on the internet.

It is unclear about why you are not able to one day have biological children.

If you regard adoption and fostering as a 'rigmarole', please don't become parents.

Secondly why on earth would you think about it if you're not ready to be a parent?

Have you considered shared parenting? Where a woman wants a baby but doesn't want to use a tradional donor because she wants the father involved in the child's life. It's very popular among the gay community, there are even match websites for potential families to meet.

Don't do anything for someone else, I'm sure your parents will survive without grandchildren.
I almost died during childbirth last year and if that happens to a surrogate, how would you feel?
Also, don't even consider adoption unless you are 100% sure. All adoption cases I know of have involved quite disturbed children and that really does cause a lot of pressure on the new parent, especially as you have no experience.

@Leobynature

Your only 28 and you haven’t been in a relationship that long for these life changing decisions.

Having children for your parents is not a wise idea and shows a lack of maturity and understanding on you behalf about what parenting actually is.

Also surrogacy and fostering/adoption are long gruelling and emotionally draining processes and a decision to do this needs to be made with your GF and not random strangers on the internet.

It is unclear about why you are not able to one day have biological children.

Because they're both men...

What if the woman dies in childbirth? What if a scan shows life-changing disabilities? What if you change your mind? What if your relationship doesn't last the pregnancy or the first year as parents? Who takes the baby given that you don't seem to want it much?

Women's bodies aren't for rent, especially to people who are entirely ambivalent about the end result.

In what way is it in a child's best interests to take it away from its mother at birth so you can have it? You want a mothers perspective? Ok. There is literally nothing more important to a new born baby than it's mother. 4th trimester and all that. Surrogacy is the absolutely most selfish way to get yourself a baby. Perhaps you should think about why surrogacy is illegal. Because it's not done for the child.

It is unclear about why you are not able to one day have biological children. He's on a same sex relationship.

Don't have children unless you're sure.
Don't have children because your parents want to be grandparents.
I don't feel comfortable with surrogacy at all but you shouldn't take that into account either.

Ignore what your parents might want - do you and your boyfriend want to be together forever (can you get married)? Are you financially secure and is your home suitable for a family? Do you both actually want kids - the snot, the puke, the nappies, the sleepless nights, the lack of time together, a social life which revolves around soft play instead of nice restaurants, travel restricted to fami friendly and school time options?

If you are in a committed relationship where you both want kids then you should look at adoption. Surrogacy is illegal for a reason- women are not incubators and you are not entitled to financially exploit a poor woman.

Women aren't vessels to provide you with children. It is damaging for the woman, and it is damaging for a child to be removed from their mother - the body that has bonded with it, grown it, kept it safe and nurtured. In every other circumstance we strive to avoid this, but with surrogacy it's apparently fine. Damaging two lives so you can have a newborn? Gross. Children are a privilege and in no way a right. Yes, your options are more limited as a male same sex couple, but life ain't fair and you don't get to fuck up others to redress the balance.

As you're in Australia and surrogacy is (rightly) illegal, I'd imagine you'd be looking to go abroad to a country like Thailand where women are forced to rent their bodies to rich white people. Does that sound right to you? Taking advantage of poor women of colour so you can have a baby without the 'rigamarole' of adoption?

Finally, your parents' desire to be grandparents couldn't be more irrelevant in your choosing whether to have children or not, and when.

@Leobynature

Your only 28 and you haven’t been in a relationship that long for these life changing decisions.

Having children for your parents is not a wise idea and shows a lack of maturity and understanding on you behalf about what parenting actually is.

Also surrogacy and fostering/adoption are long gruelling and emotionally draining processes and a decision to do this needs to be made with your GF and not random strangers on the internet.

It is unclear about why you are not able to one day have biological children.

It is unclear about why you are not able to one day have biological children

Have you misunderstood that they are two males in a same sex relationship?

Women aren't vessels to provide you with children. It is damaging for the woman, and it is damaging for a child to be removed from their mother - the body that has bonded with it, grown it, kept it safe and nurtured. In every other circumstance we strive to avoid this, but with surrogacy it's apparently fine. Damaging two lives so you can have a newborn? Gross. Children are a privilege and in no way a right. Yes, your options are more limited as a male same sex couple, but life ain't fair and you don't get to fuck up others to redress the balance.

This ^^

Just because we can do something doesn't mean we should.

Not to have.

Read your post back and imagine its your sister who posted it.

What would you advise her?

1. She doesn't really want kids yet, perhaps not at all
2. She's only been with her partner 3 years
3. Surrogacy is illegal where she lives
4. her parents haven't said anything about grandchildren but theoretically ought to want them because (why exactly?)

And the question is should she have a surrogate child and "take what comes"?

The people "taking what comes" would be the newborn baby who might end up left with the woman who's womb is hired, the woman who takes all the health risks of pregnancy and birth and might well be left holding a baby she carried as a business transaction when that baby couldn't be imported by the buyer due to being the result of an illegal trade, and the second woman left with the potential health impact of egg donation for sale.

No - if this were your sister posting the answer would be not to, as it should be for you.

Don't buy a designer baby, especially if it's illegal.

Would you be willing to co-parent with a woman? Not surrogacy but co-parenting?

Why is surrogacy illegal in Australia and where would you plan to find a surrogate instead?

If the answer is "because it's dangerous exploitation" and "I'd find a woman in a poorer country to exploit" then you need to have a look at yourself.

Adoption, surrogacy, pregnancy, having a new born - it's all difficult and draining and dangerous and if you're on the fence about having a child then it's not for you.

@AmySosa as a pregnant woman I'm horrified by the glib comment "it's often fatal". From my understanding and research that really is not the case in 1st world countries and while possible it's fairly rare! Please if you have research/evidence that backs that up I'd be grateful to read it.

I know this is an emotive topic but throwing out comments like that is really not helpful

@nelly in third world countries, which the OP would have to go to in order to find a surrogate, it is a lot more fatal than a first world country. That’s not glib, that’s fact. You maybe want to go look up the stats, but I’d advise against it while pregnant tbh, especially advise against reading accounts from women and their families in those countries. You’ll cry for weeks.

Nelly never look up maternal mortality or injury stats while pregnant or ttc. It depends on your country, age, health conditions, etc, and unless you really research And look in depth it’ll likely just scare you for no good reason. I speak from experience.

Focus instead on making sure you eat healthy, continue doing appropriate exercise, and keep your medical support aware of any issues you may encounter.

And don’t go on surrogacy threads as it will always be discussed!

You answered your own question, when you said you are not ready. Please don't bring children into this world unless you are 100% certain, ready, willing and able. It's hard work at the best of times!
One of the ethical issues with surrogacy is that the baby feels they are a part of the mother's body. They don't know yet that they are a separate person. The baby pines for their mother's body and milk and is, l believe, broken hearted. I don't know if this fundamental loss ever really heals. I'm going on the account of the writer, Janette Winterson on her adoption story. You can research the science of this. It's not like buying a pair of Gucci loafers, sorry that was bitchy, but you get my point. You can't just buy a human.
There is a documentary about a male gay couple and a female lesbian couple in the Netherlands who are co-parenting. I think this is the best scenario for a child, because they see all their parents every week and they know who their parents are.
Even lesbians who can carry a baby have the issue of the child needing to know who their dad is. There are all sorts of identity problems children can have, particularly adopted children. It's very complicated and messy, for the rest of your life!
If your parents want to play with children, they could help out a local single mother who needs childcare and a financial buffer, that's the most ethical way to help a child, that l can think of right now. Because the most important person in this scenario is the child.