Is saying ‘having a paddy’ racist?

[PanickyBrum1]

I’m a new parent who posted for the first time on mumsnet recently after having a very tired and at times unreasonable panic about things. Some of the things I wrote were not fair and I rightly got picked up on them and some things that the community attacked me about I would stand by. But one thing I’m genuinely not sure whether I should feel bad for was being condemned for using the phrase ‘having a paddy’.

To give context I was describing my own behaviour and although I’m half Irish by blood, the whole Irish thing hadn’t even occurred to me.

[AWomanIsAnAdultHumanFemale]

I am seriously suprised that people think that's it meaning.

People don’t think that’s its meaning. That is it’s meaning!!

[smudgedlipstick]

I always knew it to be originated from the forces, about being stuck in a paddy field. I say this daily about my dd never once crossed my mind to mean anything else.

[LivLemler]

It never even occurred to me that it was a reference to the Irish, just thought it was a term for having a strop

...

I don't think it's racist, sorry

It IS a term for having a strop. That's WHY it's racist (or xenophobic, anyway). "Paddy" is a term for an Irishman - leave aside whether or not you think it's an offensive term. Can you not see why describing a toddler tantrum as "having an Irishman" is offensive? What about waking past a toddler screaming for ice-cream and hearing the mum saying "oh he's just having a Nigerian"? Do you get it now?

[GreenRut]

I'm second generation, in the UK and it's widely used among people. I find it offensive.

[drearydeardre]

Out of interest I googled a bit about ethnic slurs (rather than racism ) to find out about 'paddy' (maybe paddypower should change its name)
To me using the word paddy is an ethnic slur that should be avoided as should many others on the Wikipedia list.
There are many words on that list I have never heard used and they are in some way derogatory to a particular ethnicity - many of them have originated in the US and are never heard in the UK

[InionEile]

There are lots of these phrases knocking around the English language - Irish twins, paddywhackery, paddy wagon, shenanigans, donnybrook (American-English for fisticuffs, which ironically is also the name for a rather posh part of Dublin), Irish goodbye. They could be classified as 'micro aggressions' for Irish people if you want to use the American style of PC phrasing.

The first time I heard the phrase 'Irish twins', for example, it really upset me because it made me think back to all the generations of Irish women who had no choice but to give birth year after year, no access to contraception or abortion, bullied by husbands and belittled by the Catholic Church. There's a sad history to that phrase and I hate it. Anyone who uses it is diminished in my eyes.

'Having a paddy' is similar but less offensive because I actually like the stereotype of Irish people being hotheads. It's not true but I wouldn't blame my forebears for being angry bastards as outcast immigrants working the shittiest jobs in England. Fair play to them. I hope they got in a few fights and threw some good punches!

In general, if you know a phrase is offensive, you're better off not using it. You're only making yourself look bad. Same goes for phrases that are offensive to anyone.

[MrBig1]

Its like the n word you can say it about your own but not when outsiders say it.

[MrBig1]

It is offensive and panders to steteotypes. But an irish person saying it would probably be ok. And by irish i mean born bred irish not immigrant to england of irish ancestors for example.

[Amalfimamma]

100% Irish here. I did come on to say that I personally don't find the term offensive but have decided that the ops insistence in being right and a goady fucker is the most offensive behaviour I've seen in a while on mn.

Almost as bad as the gf tras who invaded not long ago.

Op, give yerself a wobble ffs

[AsAProfessionalFekko]

I'm Scottish and hate being referred to as (a) jock. I also have red hair so being told that I'm bad tempered isn't a laugh either. Don't even ask about 'collar and cuffs' matching.

It depends on the intention and the speaker. If comments or phrases are said to hurt or offend then I will tell them to piss off, otherwise either smile and nod, or say it's offensive.

[Rinceoir]

I’m Irish, living in London. Have never heard the phrase in Ireland. Have called colleagues out for using it- find it very offensive.

[mrsjackrussell]

I'm horrified as I use this phrase sometimes and never ever connected it to anything Irish. I just thought a paddy was another word for tantrum. Never thought about it.
Now I know I obviously won't be using it anymore.

[bookmum08]

OK. Apologises if anyone has been offended by me using this phrase however if I have ever used it I never used it as saying that's (ie having a tantrum) how Irish people behave because it has never ever even crossed my mind to think of people who are Irish in that way. Yes every country etc has stereotypes but I have never ever thought of Irish people being people who lie on the floor screaming and kicking their feet around whatever which is what I would mean if I said a toddler was 'having a paddy'.

[drearydeardre]

interestingly (or not) this same discussion has been on MN before
and a poster there summed up a balanced view of this
If you look up the etymology of different phrases including "paddy", there are some interesting divergences. For example, in US black slang, a "paddy" was at one time generic slang for a white person, nothing to do with the Irish. And the "paddywagon" was possibly named because so many US police officers were Irish, rather than because the most regular passengers inside them were of Irish origin. So don't automatically assume that the origin is derogatory. Language comes up with words as part of natural evolution, then some fall into disuse.

[LivLemler]

The "Irish goodbye" one always puzzles me. Only heard it in the last few years, do for anyone who doesn't know, it means to leave a party without saying goodbye to anyone, just disappearing. Whereas, if I need to leave a social event in Ireland, I know to start leaving about an hour before I need to.

[TaraCave]

I'm Irish and live in Ireland.
It's a negative slur and feeds off stereotypes. Have only ever heard it in the UK. Never ever have I heard anyone in Ireland use this phrase.

I find it offensive. Sorry

[TaraCave]

^^ lol yes our Irish goodbyes involve holding your car keys and handbag for nearly an hour while you get a wee bit closer to the door.

We do great wakes though. 3 days of sandwiches and tea, and someone sitting up all night with the deceased making sure the candles don't go out!

[ineedaholidaynow]

I must admit I didn't realise where having 'a paddy' was derived from.

Based on that I assume 'paddywhack' in the nursery rhyme This Old Man is offensive too, or does that have a different derivation?

[MysweetAudrina]

I'm Irish and not easily offended but I had never heard that phrase before I started posting on MN. It is used a lot here and while it doesn't offend me personally I know that there would be uproar on this board if it the phrase referenced a black, Asian, Muslim, Traveller, Gay or disabled person.

[AWomanIsAnAdultHumanFemale]

maybe paddypower should change its name

David power, the founder of paddy power, has a son called paddy power.

[AWomanIsAnAdultHumanFemale]

The first time I heard the phrase 'Irish twins', for example, it really upset me because it made me think back to all the generations of Irish women who had no choice but to give birth year after year, no access to contraception or abortion, bullied by husbands and belittled by the Catholic Church. There's a sad history to that phrase and I hate it. Anyone who uses it is diminished in my eyes.

Absolutely this! There is a reason irish women had babies close together, and it wasn’t so they could buy them matching outfits.

[HopeMumsnet]

Hi all,
We have had quite a few reports about this thread but given that the mood seems to have settled and broadly the thread has resolved that it is a phrase that does give offence and thus might best be avoided (which chimes with what MNers concluded the last time it was discussed), we will let the thread continue.
We have deleted some personal attacks, however, and do hope that the conversation can continue in this more temperate fashion.

[reddressblueshoes]

Throwing a paddy is not something I have ever, ever heard in ireland, and it is offensive.

I do know some second generation Irish people in the U.K. who use it, but frankly, having a passport doesn't mean you get to decide what people who have actual lived experience of being discriminated against get to take issue at.

Beyond/outside the pale is actually something Irish people use and is not offensive in any way I can think of- the pale was a geographical region the British had firm control over and outside it was seen as being savage, the phrase is more or less reclaimed and used either jokingly as part of a Dublin/county divide or with no reference to its origins.

'Throwing a paddy' only works if you hold onto the live view that 'paddys' are irrational and childlike. 'The pale' is no longer under British control so making jokes about that isn't really an issue.

Irish twins- meh. I am ok with Irish people saying it, slightly less so with non-Irish.

There is nothing inherently problematic with the name Patrick, or Paddy. But it's been historically used as a shorthand for a v stereotypical problematic account of Irishness. As with all of these things- if a group of people are offended by the way you describe them, maybe have a think about why before telling them they're wrong to be offended.

[gardia]

Wow I use this phrase aimed at my dd having a strop. Didn’t know it’s origins or that it could be offensive. Learn something new everyday.

[SoddingUnicorns]

Agree that Paddy as an actual name (as in short for Patrick) isn’t a problem, I know a few Paddys. But that’s a name, not something used in a derogatory way.