How to pay care home fees out of the value of an unsold house - looking for experiences

[DinahCat]

I have another thread on here about the possibility (or not) of my Mum returning home after a series of strokes that have left her with the full loss of one field of vision, and apparently, loss of her ability to form new memories or to access many of her old ones. Also currently with very little mobility. 😔

We are meeting the hospital discharge team tomorrow but it is really looking likely that the best place for her would be in a care home where we would be confident there was always someone there to help her, and probably with nursing etc at least to begin with as she has had skin breakdown etc in hospital. I hate to think of her alone and not sure where she was, or unable to find the commode because she can't see. Although we can consider sleep-in care, I just don't think the budget will extend to 24 hour waking shifts. Plus other issues I mentioned in the other thread.

This is a financial question though - she has enough in savings for about a year of care at the dementia/nursing end; possibly more when her pension and AA is added in as that will no longer be being spent on food and fuel etc.

After that, what generally happens? Does the local authority take over until the sum can be reclaimed from the house value, and if so, do they pay the LA rate or the self-funders rate? I assume the latter but I'm sure people on here will know. I am guessing if it were the lower rate homes might be less keen to take self-funders - as it is, they just seem to want to know 'does she own her own home'.

Some homes offer 'deferred payments' which would obviously be at the self-funders rate.

Its slightly complicated by the fact that we don't necessarily want to sell the house as one of us children is considering moving in to it (currently in rented in another county) and that seems better for the house than leaving it empty anyway. Has anyone done this and did it complicate everything horribly?

(We do realise that at some point the house may have to be sold and the "live-in" child would then need to move out again....or possibly they could 'buy out' the local authority/care home with their savings?)

I realise this is rather more than one question, but as with my previous thread, I am just really asking for people's own experiences and tips that they have learned on the way.

Most care homes geared up for private clients will expect to see proof of a bare minimum of 2 years financial reserves, this could include a property but in my both personal and professional experience they will expect the house to be placed on the market as soon as possible to free up the funds.
The local authority will step in and pay their rates if savings run out before a property is sold, their rates are usually around 50% of the care homes ‘real’ rates. In that situation a charge is applied on the house via the land registry pending the sale to safeguard the interests of the LA.
I’m not sure that a child moving into the property would be viewed well particularly by the LA and if the child planned to buy the property themselves the LA would expect this to be initiated straight away.
Please be aware that not all providers accept LA rates even after a long period of paying private rates (eg when capital has been spent) its important to ask any prospective provider their position on this and get it in writing. Worst case scenario they will serve notice or ask family to pay a top up fee.

Hi @DinahCat I remember your previous post about your mum. I'm glad to hear you're looking at care homes.

You have been given good advice by @Dogdilemma01

You need to plan for the house to be sold by the time that money is needed for her fees. The LA will step in if there is a gap, but realistically a year is plenty of time to sell.

My mother was self funding for several years, but after 8 years her funds ran out the LA took over her funding. You really don't want to have LA involvement if you can avoid it, it is time consuming and hard work. And being self funding also has the huge advantage that you get to choose where your mother lives.

Ah that's really helpful, if depressing. To clarify, the child who was considering moving in can't live there with Mum (handy though that might sound) because they have a disability of their own, sadly.

The LA put a charge on the house so they get first crack at the funds. They are happy to wait a couple of years but you will get letters demanding payment in the meantime. No drama.

Whatever you do, don’t sign anything that makes you personally responsible for DM’s bills. They might try it.

Good luck - it’s quite straightforward in practice and remember the LA can’t get you to pay what you or DM don’t currently have.

What would market rent on the house be? How long would savings last when that income is added in (along with her exisiting income)?

The only relevant experience I have is of trying to get a privately funded place for my mum in our choice of home. They wanted evidence of 3 years of fees in cash in the bank, NOT including the proceeds of her unsold flat. She didn’t have that, so they refused to take her.

I think it depends now whether homes are more desperate for bums on seats, or appropriately cautious about how long it is taking to sell property.

Instead, she got an initial Discharge to Assess place in a home that was one of those offered as a choice by the hospital social worker.

Just to add i dont think you get AA when in care homes, could be wrong but sure they stopped my mums. Also they wanted the house sold before she could go into home,this wasn't needed in the end as she was diagnosed with stage 4 and Sue Ryder paid for her care.

Re putting the house on the market straight away, looks like we need to do some very careful calculations. Mum is 93, and honestly last week we thought she might be in her last weeks of life...in fact when we started thinking about this, I was looking at respite and end of life provision . The hospital has now said she is 'a bit brighter' this week, so perhaps 2 years is not so unrealistic after all.

Possibly us kids could buy the house between us, neither could afford it alone and it would still be something of a stretch. Worth thinking about though I suppose.

If disabled child was paying rent (and they could), I wonder how that would change things? (ie it was adding earnings from the asset into Mum's total funds)

So much to think about, it's exhausting! But everyone on this board knows that...

I suppose another option is for us kids to offer our own savings rather than using the house as security, if Mum hasn't got the full two years' worth. It's not a big or very up-to-date house, but it is in an expensive area - but then of course the local care fees rather reflect that too.

Will the hospital automtically do a CHC assessment? On balance I doubt if she is eligibel for either CHC or FNC, but I guess that's a whole other thread to start :/

Oh well, time to start another spreadsheet I suppose.

Oh, that's interesting. Not what we are hearing at the moment - at least, the initial enquiries from us have just been met with "does she own her home?" and not asking about savings at all. Although its quite an expensive area, there are a LOT of homes locally and so far none have said they don't have places, which surprised me (I think the cheapest - which actually had the highest CQC rating - had the fewest, at least the manager did say to me 'first come first served')

about 20-25% of the fees I think, so it would add a number of months

Golly - that's quite severe. Seems like we're going to ahve to ask some reasonably probing questions. Gosh we are naive.

Do you have POA? I don’t think you can move someone in to her house, to her detriment, which it presumably would be if you then didn’t want to sell it to fund her fees. Will the child be paying market rent?

You don’t get AA in a nursing home but she is quite likely to be awarded Funded Nursing Care, which is currently £267 a week.

Yes, actually this is a good point. You can't deprive her of her property by moving someone else in. If they are paying market rent to help cover the care fees, that might be in her interests, and an acceptable decision for a POA to make.

If you’re self funding then AA should continue, same as with FNC.

if it’s LA funded or CHC then AA stops after 28 days.

Thank you @Forcelittle and @MellowSubmarine - really helpful! 🙂

Thanks @JustAnotherWhinger - I did do a quick google and it suggested similar

You do get AA in a care home when you are self funding. You do not get it when you are LA funded.

I think you need to focus on selling the house. Any other option is going to complicate things and this whole situation is hard to start with, don't make it harder.

There is nothing to stop the relative living in the house and paying rent until it is sold. The rent would add to your mother's funds. But you need to ensure you will always have the money available to pay the fees.

@PermanentTemporary what are the criteria for FNC, in your experience. I don't really know what counts as 'nursing' vs 'social care'

You definitely DO NOT receive AA when in a care home unfortunately.

Also 'discharge to assess' sounds like it might be relevant, partly because we don't know how much, if any, there will be recovery from the stroke(s). I'm not optimistic but its quite early days still .... what were the reasons this was arranged for your Mum, @PermanentTemporary ?

Awful situation to be in, I at 64 with decreasing and progressively Parkinson’s, def do not want nursing home, worked in care.
unfair system too, those that self fund and those that don’t

This is on the government website. I looked at it earlier when researching it for my uncle. https://www.gov.uk/attendance-allowance/eligibility

If you’re in a care homeYou cannot usually get Attendance Allowance if you live in a care home and your care is paid for by your local authority. You can still claim Attendance Allowance if you pay for all your care home costs yourself.

Simplify the whole thing with the "I might move in" sibling - if they are going to move in they need to buy the house from your mum at market rate asap. Depending on how long your mum lives, they may later inherit some fraction back in due course. This possibility cannot be used to stop your mum's assets from being used to support her care. If there's no realistic prospect of your mum becoming well enough to live at home again, the house should be sold asap one way or another.

Just to add 🙏🙏thanks to everyone for all these helpful replies (so far!) - I'm so glad I posted.