How to pay care home fees out of the value of an unsold house - looking for experiences

[DinahCat]

I have another thread on here about the possibility (or not) of my Mum returning home after a series of strokes that have left her with the full loss of one field of vision, and apparently, loss of her ability to form new memories or to access many of her old ones. Also currently with very little mobility. 😔

We are meeting the hospital discharge team tomorrow but it is really looking likely that the best place for her would be in a care home where we would be confident there was always someone there to help her, and probably with nursing etc at least to begin with as she has had skin breakdown etc in hospital. I hate to think of her alone and not sure where she was, or unable to find the commode because she can't see. Although we can consider sleep-in care, I just don't think the budget will extend to 24 hour waking shifts. Plus other issues I mentioned in the other thread.

This is a financial question though - she has enough in savings for about a year of care at the dementia/nursing end; possibly more when her pension and AA is added in as that will no longer be being spent on food and fuel etc.

After that, what generally happens? Does the local authority take over until the sum can be reclaimed from the house value, and if so, do they pay the LA rate or the self-funders rate? I assume the latter but I'm sure people on here will know. I am guessing if it were the lower rate homes might be less keen to take self-funders - as it is, they just seem to want to know 'does she own her own home'.

Some homes offer 'deferred payments' which would obviously be at the self-funders rate.

Its slightly complicated by the fact that we don't necessarily want to sell the house as one of us children is considering moving in to it (currently in rented in another county) and that seems better for the house than leaving it empty anyway. Has anyone done this and did it complicate everything horribly?

(We do realise that at some point the house may have to be sold and the "live-in" child would then need to move out again....or possibly they could 'buy out' the local authority/care home with their savings?)

I realise this is rather more than one question, but as with my previous thread, I am just really asking for people's own experiences and tips that they have learned on the way.

You definitely DO get AA if you are self funding. It’s only when you’re not self funding that it stops.

we didn’t actually claim it until my elderly relative was already resident in her nursing home.

Same here @tesseractor I claimed AA when my mother moved into the care home and she continued to receive it the whole time she was self-funding. When she switched to LA funded, it ceased.

If you are fully funding your own placement you are still eligible for attendance allowance.
If in nursing care there is also the funded nursing care element but not sure if that can be paid in addition to AA. As soon as the LA take over paying the AA stops.

I wish people would stop commenting about things they do not understand, Attendance allowance is to pay for help, you can spend it on carers in your own home or on care. If the state is already funding a care home you don’t receive it because your care costs are covered. A self funder will continue to receive it.
We have recently arranged care for an elderly property owner. The home said it was best to sell house asap as if the LA is paying they also have views about the place of care. Of course they would say that was self funding is nice and simple for them. However a house standing empty is no good for anybody.

If there's no realistic prospect of your mum becoming well enough to live at home again

We are hoping to learn more about this side of it this week - it would be wonderful to think she would recover enough capability for this to be a possibility - and as you can imagine I am struggling to rule it out, as it is very painful (for her especially of course, but my heart is breaking for her too)

I can absolutely see the logic of what you say. But how would we ever tell her we had done this? 😰We'll have to tell her she categorically is too unwell ever to go home, first. God this is so hard.

Thank you @Berengariaoftheverylowcountries . You're right, we can't just leave it there standing empty. We have hardly begun to think this through, she only went to hospital less than 3 weeks ago and there is so much we suddenly have to consider, I'm reeling.

Keep an eye on days in hospital as well with AA. It stops temporarily once you’ve been in hospital 28 days and re-starts when you come out, but if you go back within 28 days then the days all add together so it stops again.

FIL’s was a bit of a pain because he was in for 30 days, then in and out like a yo-yo for a few weeks.

just one to keep an eye on.

You may not need to tell her, in fact it may be kinder not to. Her care team would be able to help you work that one out.

FIL couldn’t make new memories and he would get incredibly distressed about things. In the end he was told his parents would be round later and that he’d be going home as soon as he was better as there was no need for him to learn every day that his parents were dead (he was in his 70s himself) and that he wasn’t going home.

You need to listen to the professionals, she’s much more likely to accept it from them than from you,

My colleague rents her mums house out and it goes towards the care home fees so this means her savings and monthly pensions etc will stretch further. Could you consider this?

This isn’t as simple as youre making our.
OP, what you need to understand is that if her cash funds run out before her house is sold, then the LA can, and do, move her to a cheaper home.
In addition if her dementia gets to the point where she loses capacity you won’t be able to just sell her house unless you have LPA for finance.
alliwing a relative to move in would be considered deprivation of assets and she could end up homeless!

Oh dear I’m sorry to have confused things re AA and FNC.

Ask to talk to a hospital social worker, assuming there is one involved - my mum’s case was only in 2021 but it’s starting to feel like a long time ago so things may have changed. I was told by the manager of the home we were trying to self fund that FNC was pretty much automatic for my mums level of need.

@DinahCat the LA will defer care home fees but at a cost. The City Council where my father is charges 5% so you have to factor that in to your calculations.

A property which is empty for more than 30 days needs empty homes insurance which can be significantly more expensive than standard insurance. There are also weekly inspection visits and the water has to be turned off at the mains etc. I found SAGA to be the best value for the cover we required and they were quick to refund when we stopped the cover after the house sold.

We sold my father's house and he has the funds to be able to stay in his nice care home. He doesn't get CHC funding but they do pay the nursing element of his care. Because he didn't already get AA we had to wait until he'd been a resident for 6 months before applying for that so as PPs have said you definitely can get AA if you are funding your own care. The home do accept LA placements (rarely) which means that if his funds were to run out he can stay in the home so worth checking that out before your Mum is moved into a care home.

Good luck. It's very stressful and a huge minefield to navigate. I found AgeUK were incredibly helpful both on the phone and with the information on their website.

Do investigate Care Annuities.

Some more fantastic advice and tips! I am working my way though everyone's replies and making copious notes, I can't thank you all enough 😊😊

You may not need to tell her, in fact it may be kinder not to Thank you @JustAnotherWhinger and @Soontobe60

@Besidemyselfwithworry It is pretty shabby and cluttered, ancient boiler etc. I guess it would just about make EPC D (is that the requirement now?) but it woiud take a lot of time and work to get it to commercial letting point - and as Mum is 93, we are mindful that she needs us with her most of all. But I have done the thought experiment and not ruled it out completely!

All really valuable advice @SleepingisanArt and @stayathomegardener TYVM indeed

..and thanks so much for all your advice @PermanentTemporary - asking re: hospital social worker is now on my list for tomorrow's meeting 🙏

We are going into a deferred payment scheme. We will keep the flat until point of death then it will be sold to pay the fees. In the meantime mum will continue to receive her pension and attendance allowance and she pays a contribution towards to home. This means when we visit we can stay at her flat which is nearby and also if she spends periods of time in hospital (likely) we can stay there while we visit.

It seems very overwhelming at first but in my experience they were really helpful and talking me through everything. Just make sure the home you choose takes both private and local authority payments. They will do a financial investigation so you need to have proof of savings etc - again,they were very helpful.

Good luck x

Oh yes,the hospital social worker has been fantastic so definitely contact them.

Yes you do depending on circumstances.

Yes definitely,mum got fined £50 because I didn't realise that. Bastards.

Interesting to read about care homes needing proof of funds - my dad’s care home didn’t ask for any proof at all! The manager and a nurse came to visit/assess him at home beforehand. They could obviously see that he had a nice home which was worth enough to cover fees for quite a few years, but nobody asked for evidence that he actually owned it. I told them that he also had enough cash to cover fees for at least a couple of years… but no proof required, they just took my word! 🤷🏻‍♀️

The home is part of a chain of good quality care homes. They seem on the ball with paperwork, regulations etc, so it surprised me that no one checked.

We had to show the social worker proof of savings which would last about 6months and proof of ownership of the flat,nothing to the home though.

My dad doesn’t have a social worker so we didn’t need to do that either. I actually needed to provide more paperwork for the estate agent than the care home! It’s all so variable.

We are not telling our relative we are selling her home. That would be cruel. She is unable to weigh up the risks or keep herself safe. So she is certainly also unable to respond objectively about this. It would be more difficult if she had capacity to make the decision - or perhaps it would be easier? I really don’t know.