LPA and People to Notify- 'difficult' sibling

[Hillyweather]

Mum is in the early stages of dementia and wants me to have finance LPA. I have been helping her with all her finances and admin etc for a while and work in finance so I think almost everyone we know would agree that this is a sensible decision in her best interests. The complication is that I do not get on with my sibling who wants to move in with her and become her primary carer. I have my own views on that, and how long it will last for, but he has said that he thinks he should have finance LPA. I have discussed this at length with Mum and she is adamant that she definitely wants me to have it, mainly because on the few occasions that sibling has been asked to do any admin type tasks they have been left for ages and she worries about whether things will be done properly. She will not tell him that, but plans to tell him that she just wants me to do it because I already know about her finances etc and she knows he is already too busy really. I am not prepared to have joint finance LPA because I don't trust him to do things 'by the book' and don't want to risk being linked with any mismanagement if OPG were to look at what was happening when she no longer has capacity.
My question is, in this situation, do I need to send him a 'person to notify' form? I can see that he might take it almost as an invitation to object (to make things harder for me and/or try to make mum change her mind) so perhaps better for mum to tell him that it has been done but not pre-notify him. But if he is not notified and later decides to object is that more of a problem? Mum has some siblings that we could notify if we feel we want to notify someone who could talk to mum etc if they had any questions about whether she really wanted the LPA.

Any other experience/advice on dealing with LPA in similar circumstances would be really helpful too. I am rather wary about taking on this role if it might leave me open to objections etc but know from another family member's experience how costly and difficult it is if no one has LPA when someone loses capacity.

I don’t think you are obligated to notify your sibling. I think it’s your mum who needs to decide if she wants to notify anyone (not you) and it’s entirely optional. I imagine your mum doesn’t want your brother notified?

It is your DM who chooses to have any (or none) "person to notify" for her PoA to ensure that she's not being coerced. It is certainly not mandatory for her to have anyone nominated in that role. And it is not your position to name one for her. She is asking you because she doesn't feel convinced that your DB would always act in her best interests, which is the whole purpose of having a PoA appointed. Why does he even have to know at this point?

Thanks. Just to clarify, the reference to me sending the form etc was because I help Mum with all her admin as she has very poor vision. It will, of course, be Mum's decision but she always asks for my advice. Mum has discussed the POA with my brother because he was at a meeting with her where she was strongly advised to have one and has been asking her when this will be done (I think he's under the impression that even if he has POA I will do all the paperwork for it). Initially I think he assumed it would be joint POA with me, but he has recently been telling her he thinks it should just be him. She has told me she is worried that he would not do things properly (I agree with her). I'm just trying to consider what would be the best way to do as she wishes with the least fuss and with least likelihood that he tries to cause problems later down the line.

If you want to do a belt and braces job, take her to see a lawyer specialising in this. Get them to do the forms and ask them to see her alone to give her advice. Ask them to take detailed file notes on the decision making process, that they have seen her without you present in order to ensure that she is not being coerced, and ask them to document that they think she has capacity to make this decision. But do it soon while she still has capacity or it will be a million times harder for you.

This!
I would have thought a solicitor’s involvement was mandatory.
It is a legal document!
I have been through the process and my parents chose me for POA
my brother did have to be told.
I am not in UK though.
My parents used excuse that I lived closer - brother still didn’t like it but the most important thing is for your parent to choose the right person for POA not the one who shouts loudest.

No, you don’t have to have a solicitor involved. If your mum has sufficient ££££ she may wish, however, to engage the services of one if she’s keen to protect you from any fall-out (ie brotherly anger) further down the line. However, this is not a necessity as the form reflects your mother’s wishes and is absolutely a legally-sound document.

Thanks everyone. I'll give some thought to involving a solicitor. I have helped MIL complete LPA forms in the past and we didn't use a solicitor then but we didn't have the complications of dementia or siblings who may have objected (she just wanted to get things in place for future use if needed). If Mum agrees I think it may be best to have the LPA witnessed by a solicitor etc and just tell my brother when it's done. He will need to know, as Mum wants me to start using the LPA as soon as possible and he if I do that I will have to make it clear to him that I will be obliged to stop him using Mum's bank card etc and instead organise any payments he needs through me.

I was in a not dissimilar situation and we just didn’t notify the other siblings. It hasn’t caused any problems. I’m extremely careful with everything though. When my Mum dies I’m planning on setting up a whattsapp and inviting my sibling to it and documenting everything. There won’t be one penny that is spent out of place.
I do all the caring etc for my Mum but unlike a lot of Mumsnetters I don’t think I should be rewarded financially for it.

IIRC the old Enduring Power of Attorneys did have a very clear and extensive process of notifying ranks of people but that wasn’t replicated in the LPoA process.

We didn't use a solicitor. Many people do it themselves.

Thanks everyone. It's a rather difficult situation because my brother currently refuses to consider any paid care for Mum so intends to be her main carer. Which in normal circumstances would make it most sensible for him to also have the finance LPA. But he is extremely disorganised and not good at managing his own money so as soon as Mum started to need help with paperwork she asked me to step in and she would like this to continue. I've no great desire to have to do the job, but can see that if my brother takes it on he will not keep any records and will end up just sort of merging their finances which could make things very messy if she ever does need paid care. If anything, from my own perspective I would rather he did have responsibility for her finances because otherwise I know I will have to insist he stops using her bank card etc and comes to a proper arrangement for any payments to him. I'd much rather not have that fight and let him deal with any fall-out if mum needs help with the cost of care.

This is your DM's decision and if you are going to be her financial PoA, then you have to get accustomed to following her decisions. Since she currently has capacity, she should be vocalising her wishes as to who she wants to have control of her accounts and who she wants to be in charge of her care. Does she actually want your brother to be her sole carer? Has she said what she wants when her care needs increase or are you just going to let him determine what she can or can't have? Who is her medical PoA btw? Please don't abdicate this important responsibility because you've a knobhead to contend with. It's going to massively impact on the future your DM has. Your DB's ego will survive it, even if your relationship with him takes a hit.

@Hillyweather where is your brother living just now ?

What’s his situation - married ? Kids ? Working?

What specifically equips him to be a good career for your mum? Why is it his decision as to whether your mum has paid care or not ?

Why is your brother using your mums bank card ? That has to stop (shouldn’t have started tbh).

@Wofflewaffle Brother lives with his partner and child but says if/when it becomes necessary they will move in with mum to look after her. I have said very clearly that I won't do that, and think that we need to look at paid care options. Mum says she wants to be cared for by family so although I think it's clear to anyone that brother is not really in a good position to take on this role she sees it as the only way. I know that really they would both like me to be her main carer but I am just not prepared to do that, and I don't think it would actually be in her best interests. So whether or not she has paid care has become brother's decision- if he said he would not be her carer either she knows she would have to look at paid care/residential care options but if he is willing to do it she's happy to let him.
@SylvanMoon Mum has said from the start that she wants me to handle her finances/admin and I am more than happy to follow her wishes whilst she has capacity and we have discussed making a written note of preferences to help guide me for when she no longer has capacity. However, she is wary of upsetting brother because he's the one offering to be her carer. This makes medical POA more difficult. Mum would like us both to have this but I know that brother's view is that if he is her carer I should not have a say. I don't object to joint and several medical POA in the same way that I would for financial (my refusal to have joint finance POA is the potential legal and reputational implications for me if he did mishandled this) but I can actually also see his point of view that if he is having to deal with the medical decisions day to day it makes more sense for him to have the POA. But again this should be Mum's decision and all we can do is agree to be POA or refuse. My fear (which at some level I think Mum shares given some things she has said to me) if brother had sole medical POA is that if he decides he can't manage after all or for some other reason she has to move to residential care he may lose interest in being available to deal with decisions. Currently mum signed a consent form with her GP to say that her HCP can discuss her care with me, but clearly that won't help with decision making if/when she loses capacity. For now, I am focussing on financial LPA because I am already effectively looking after these things for mum (with her agreement to everything I do) and it is very hard to do that when we do not live nearby and she needs to be with me to do anything.

What a mess. So she trusts your judgment and not your brother’s but because she doesn’t want outside care she’s willing to put herself in his hands? She wants him to do the caring (because he has offered) but she wants you to manage everything?

what care does she currently need? She’s living alone, right?
will his commitment extend to personal care ie feeding / toileting / etc when she needs it? Does he have any idea of the reality of caring for someone with dementia?

why does your brother want to do this, and what does his partner think about it? Are they planning to move in with her?

if your mum does not trust your brother to act in her best interests, or to even be organised enough to do so, why does she think he will be a good carer?

I think you can see this has car crash written all over it, right. Have you been able to talk to your mum about your brothers general suitability as a carer? And how she feels about living with him and his family?

I'm in total agreement here with @Wofflewaffle. I think you need to have a very serious and frank discussion with your mother about her future. It's not just your DB deciding to move in with her to care for her, but he's also planning on uprooting his wife and child too. Does that mean he'll be leaving whatever job he and/or his wife currently have to do this? Is his child in school or nursery? Does his wife understand that it probably means she's going to be doing a lot of the caring? And does your mother really want her son to be the one bathing and toileting her? It's one thing for your mother to want to be cared for by family, and it's also fine for you to say you are not in a position to offer that. But when it all goes pear-shaped, you're probably going to be the one stepping in to sort it out. Your mother (and probably your brother too) may at this point be thinking that care for her just means someone is there to provide meals and clean the house for her. But as we all age and become frail, care becomes much more intimate and intense, most times relying on carers throughout the day helping to do some very intimate and personal care. My DH and I moved his mother into our house. At the start, it was no problem to integrate her into our mealtimes and day. He transported her to day care centres for activities and we were able to leave her in the house alone at times. I was able to continue with full-time work and my DH went part-time. But as her dementia increased, that wasn't sustainable and we had to employ carers to be there most of the day.

I think your mother needs to hear what her needs are likely to be and to honestly consider whether your brother is going to be able to fulfill those needs for the rest of her life. I wish you well in sorting out this mess. But everything you say convinces me that you should have sole PoA for your mother's finances and possibly medical.

If he is to move in, with family, you need very clear boundaries on what your mum pays for and what he does.
Eg she pays
all utilities and food
She pays the extra council tax
She pays, house maintenance, jobs over £x to be agreed in advance

They pay for all their own personal spends
They pay for their holidays, cars

Maybe they (and you) have access to one day to day account but you lightly check what goes out.
Her main incomes and savings kept separate and just standing order to the day to day.

To me that kind of deal would be fair in exchange for caring.

Maybe also write down what is expected of them

• meals, shopping, companionship, keeping her safe, appointments

What if she needs feeding, changing etc?

What if she then needs to move to a care home, do they then move out so house can be sold? Or will they claim they can't due to child's exams. How long could they stay for?

I think having something agreed in advance may help (and may make your DB decide he can't).

The impression I have is moving someone with early dementia is better done sooner rather than later so they have more chance of embedding their orientation in the new place. But I may be wrong.

The OP hasn’t said but presumably the brother and partner are working and have their own incomes? So they should be paying their own normal living costs ie food and share of bills. The OPs mum shouldn’t be paying bills and food for his entire family.

But there’s still a lot of missing info especially on the brother’s situation / motivation.

But equally, if they really are doing care that should be taken into account.

The LPA is only for when your Mum loses mental capacity. The Office of the Public Guardian are currently estimating 10-12 weeks for them to process LPA forms.

He's planning to move in and dump your mum's personal care on his partner whilst having access to the money.

You are all right, it is a really messy situation. The relationships are a bit odd to say the least. I've always been the 'sensible/capable one' whereas brother was the one needing to be looked after. Mum has mental capacity but I'm sure the dementia is making it very difficult for her to really thing through the pros and cons of the choices she needs to make. At the moment, whatever I say she is focussed on being cared for by family at home so as brother is promising that she doesn't want to question it.
You all raise valid questions, that I have tried to ask but Mum's answer is basically this is the only way, and brother's answer is some variant of 'It's what Mum wants so you have no right to question it'. I agree re an agreement over share of living expenses too. In many ways I'm not overly concerned what that is- if they care for her properly the alternative would be very expensive paid care. But if/when it all goes wrong I worry about how Mum will manage if her finances have not been properly managed and she can't afford care but has funding challenged under deprivation of assets rules etc. This is not something they will discuss, because of course they think it will never happen.
I didn't mean to drip-feed, but just wanted to concentrate in the OP on the one specific issue of people to notify of an LPA. The more I think about it, he more I really don't want to be in a position where I have to navigate managing Mum's finances with brother arguing about it and thinking he calls all the shots. But unfortunately the only alternative I can see will leave Mum very vulnerable. It really is a mess, but I think we have a short window to sort it out before mum loses capacity and things get even more difficult if no one has LPA.

I know about the wait time for LPA to be processed but, just for the benefit of anyone else reading this and looking at LPA, finance LPA can be set up either to kick in when the donor loses capacity or to allow the attorney to act (with the donor's permission) whilst they still have capacity. There is information about this on the Gov.uk website. The latter is what Mum wants, so that we can discuss what she wants to do but I have formal authority to actually do it for her. I think health and welfare POA is different, and only applies when capacity is lost.

We got parents' LPAs for financial activated v quickly. They set them up some time ago with authority for us to act whenever.
All we had to do was apply for activation code, get it sent and activate.

For health it is only when don't have capacity