And so it continues - capacity and banking.

[victormeldrewcantbelieveit]

I've posted before about my 82 year old Grandmother, here's my previous thread for context:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/elderlyparents/5443012-lpa-dilemma?page=1

This was about 6 months ago.

It's happening again.

A few weeks ago I recommended the husband of one of my best friends to DGM via text as she needed some painting and decorating undertaking. It has now come to the point where she is trying to pay him (a week late) and she has managed to lock herself out of her bank again.

She is getting into an absolute tangle - she has said the bank won't pay it as they think it's fraud/it's a commercial invoice for a domestic job/numerous other things/she input a digit wrong and it has now been locked.

She has no access to any of her bank accounts as all of her cards again are frozen. She refuses to go into the bank in person to try and get this sorted and has gotten nasty with my friend's husband telling him to just 'take her bank to court' and to be 'careful what he suggests and who he listens to' when he asked if she was actually going to pay him.

Friend's husband suggested initially she transferred it to me for me to transfer to him which she refused to do as 'I don't like her'. She has no photo ID to take into the branch to verify her identity as the only ID she has is a passport which is locked into a safe which she has no access to. During this time she hasn't spoken to me (not in 2 weeks) and all info I have is second hand via my friend and her husband. DGM is reluctant to sort the banking and the local shop are giving her groceries for free daily, presumably until it's sorted. I rang the shop and tried to settle up for her, but they refused, and they said they think she actually is 'with it' and it's just a case of forgetting her PIN etc.

She owes my friend and her husband what I imagine is a considerable amount and clearly has no intention of sorting her bank out so she can pay it. She has no way to access cash for daily essentials and I can't see her local shop supporting her indefinitely (and quite rightly so!)

I tried to call her last night and again this morning multiple times so I can take her to her bank to try and get it sorted but she kept picking up the phone and hanging up immediately and then unplugged the phone and turned her mobile off too. I have no key for her house, nor do I have LPA. I offered to be LPA last year but she then took umbrage at something and told me not to bother. There is no way she would answer the door to me, and I'm at a loss at what to do next. I think we are going to have to pay my friend and her husband what is owed and I'm going to put some cash through her door this weekend to tide her over but she is screening every call from me (just like she did with the incident with her nephew last year).

I spoke to her GP yesterday who is going to invite her in under the guise of a health check to try and assess what is going on with her re capacity. She has told my friend's husband she has spoken to her solicitor about the banking issue (not that a solicitor can help), I rang her solicitor yesterday about her capacity and if they can send any concerns into the GP for more context but they said no due to GDPR.

I've spoken to SS this morning who are doing a check this afternoon but they said they can only get involved if DGM agrees to it which I know she won't.

She's so bloody stubborn and will not answer the phone to me when I'm the only family member left and I'm willing to help her.

If I'm honest I was initially thinking that there was some early dementia there but the more I think about it (not that I'm an expert) I think it's just some form of forgetfulness and a possible personality disorder getting worse as she ages (she has form going back as long as I know her for being obstinate, difficult and nasty).

Does anyone know what the next step would be should she refuse SS help and continue to ignore my calls and attempts to get in touch?

Oh, OP, I've just read your previous thread and you sound lovely - you have been doing so much to help a woman who just doesn't deserve you or your time.

The fact that she clearly owes your friend's DH a lot of money does complicate things a little - but it's not you that owes the money, but your grandmother. My instinctive response, even before looking at your previous thread, was to step right back. And now, yes, I am even more convinced that you should step right back. She has a long history of being not just ungrateful, but actively horrible to you. You have your own life, your own family - focus on them and let them support you.

Ideally, you disengaging might encourage her to pay your friend's DH if she'll see this a a way of getting you back. Otherwise, hopefully he has some way of dealing with difficult, non-paying customers. But, remember, although I can absolutely understand you feeling bad about it - you're not the one who owes him money.

Time to take care of yourself.

I also remember your previous thread, and agree with previous poster.
If you can afford it, could you pay the decorator friend at least something (the act of offering, even if he doesn’t accept may help your friendship stay intact! ) and then ask that he pays you back when your Dg eventually pays if you’re worried about him being out of pocket, so difficult when he's a friend.
It’s hard to step away, but I think you need to for your own sanity. She may or may not have dementia symptoms but if she wont accept help youve just got to sit back and wait for the crisis, there isnt much you can do. And without POA increasingly difficult. I feel for you!

Why are you doing this? I think it's time to drop the rope.

It sounds like dementia is a reasonable concern here. Memory loss is far from the only symptom.

So sorry you're in this difficult position 😔 it sounds like DGM has capacity to make her own decisions but unfortunately has a difficult and unpleasant personality. You can't force her to engage with you and you've done the right thing involving GP and social services.

For what it's worth, I don't think you should pay the friend on her behalf - I think you should give him your blessing to pursue payment through his usual channels which would probably be small claims court. If you keep bailing DGM out, she will not feel the consequences of her actions. I wouldn't be putting money through her door either - at some point this needs to come to a head and you're just delaying the inevitable. You need to take a big step back and wait for her to contact you. I'm sure she will when it all goes to shit and she can't get any more groceries on tick from the shop.

She's an adult and she's making bad choices but it sounds like this has been a pattern throughout her life. It's not your job to rescue her.

Just came on to say exactly what @whippersnapper55 said.

Step right back, @victormeldrewcantbelieveit - let her face the consequences of her actions. No harm will come to her. Two things can happen: she either realises that she cannot continue as she has been and will start to accept help, or it will become clear that she no longer has capacity and SS and her GP will have to step in and arrange help for her.

Wow, just read your previous thread and can't believe you have been treated so awfully. I'm sorry but if I was you I'd be stepping right back and letting SS deal with her. From reading your posts I can see why she hasn't got any friends or family left around her because she sounds absolutely horrible. You need to think about your own health and your children. Done feel guilty at all. What can you really do anyway when she's completely blocked any form of contact from you? Leave her to it imo

Thank you so much everyone for your replies.

I think I'm at the point now where I am going to just walk away and focus on my family - It has been a long time since I have seen my DH as angry as he has been this week after seeing the effect she has on me - and even DS13 is angry at seeing how upset I have been.

Knowing DGM I think now she will just disengage from my friend's husband now and not reply to him any further - he is going to send her a final letter before going down the small claims court route. DGM 'deals' with things like this - she will just cut people off/stop replying to anything she finds uncomfortable. Hence why she refused to speak to me this morning. I don't think DGM has any intention of paying. Even if he takes her to court I can see her just trying to bat it away - she really is that arrogant and bloody minded that she would consider herself above the courts.

@FullLondonEye I don't know really why I carry on with it, I think it's a combination of guilt and obligation - I'm the only person left in the family so there was always a huge feeling of guilt about leaving an 82 year old with no-one. Even after how she has been to me. But after this week and especially this morning when she was answering the phone and hanging up immediately/unplugging the phone when I was trying to help and arrange to take her to the bank was probably the last straw - she didn't even have the decency to speak to me after she has been messing my friends around for over a week now.

When I spoke to SS this morning they said they would call me with an update which didn't happen - I chased them up this afternoon and they said they can't tell me anything including if they even made contact with her this afternoon but that the 'referral was in process' which makes me wonder if maybe she has spoken to them and asked them not to tell me anything?

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/elderly_parents/5443012-lpa-dilemma

Previous thread as doesn't seem to be linking above!

It is my experience that when someone ends up alone and lonely, there is often a very good reason for that. I once got seriously flamed on here for expressing that view, but your grandmother is the exact illustration of why it happens and my mother in law will be in a similar position. If people make a point of treating others like shit over a long period of time, they can't be surprised or disappointed when they end up alone.

This is my mums situation . She is also 82 and has been a nasty difficult woman her whole life . She has alienated every single person who’s ever come into her life and has literally no-one left . I am the only one who sees her once a week for 20mins out of duty and I refuse to do a single thing for her beyond opening a jar . There is no LPA as she accuses everyone of stealing from her when she just drops it , no money for carers , help around the home , no plans or provisions for elder care whatsoever.
It’s very sound advice to step away now OP you sound like you have tried so hard to support her and it’s not wanted or appreciated. These miserable old women have made their beds and now they can sort themselves out .

Agree with this, though it doesn't make the decision to walk away any easier - I've gone from being utterly furious this morning to just feeling very sad at the whole sorry mess this evening.

Does your relative have a cheque book ?

They could write a cheque to pay the person who did the work

Some banks still issue cheques

Secondly, if she knows her PIN she can get cash back at a Post Office or an ATM

For ID

Council tax bill
Bus pass
Bank statement

Bloody hell OP, I've just read your previous thread.
You have done absolutely everything you can, more than most would do considering how she's tried to wash her hands of you when you needed her.

You're trying and she doesn't want what you can offer. It's absolutely time to walk away.

Re your friend, can you offer to pay (as a PP said) and he pay you back if he manages to get anything through small claims? A cheque is also a potential solution - unless she gets shirty and puts a stop on it.

Do not further set yourself on fire here to keep her warm. Your post should serve as a salutary warning to others in similar situations with such difficult people. She was once young and abusive and now she is old and abusive.

It is hard being the last one left who bothers with someone like your grandmother but there is often good reason why such aged women like her are alone. It is because they have untreated and or untreatable disorders of personality (the word narcissist came to mind when it comes to your grandmother) and have driven people away by their actions.

I think she has now blocked me from her phone so she was the one doing the cutting off in the end, not me!

I do hate how easily the guilt can be triggered though - when I spoke to her local shop this week and offered to pay them for the food they have been supplying her with, the person on the line said "well you sound young, she needs someone young to help her" when frankly I would rather cut off my own arm than go anywhere near her.

It is because they have untreated and or untreatable disorders of personality (the word narcissist came to mind when it comes to your grandmother) and have driven people away by their actions.

Oddly enough I have been reading a lot about narcissism over the past few days and it fits completely. The lack of accountability, the bullying/overbearing nature, the control, the entitlement, the arrogance, the exploitation, the manipulation.

It's eye opening really. She has tried bribery this year with my DCs too - she messaged me asking if they would write to her if she sent them some money. I think for a long time I couldn't see the wood for the trees but I'm now seeing her for what she is. When DS first got a phone at 11, she asked me for his number and he told me he didn't want her to have it. Which I suppose speaks volumes.

She was once young and abusive and now she is old and abusive.
This is spot on.

Does your relative have a cheque book ?
They could write a cheque to pay the person who did the work
Some banks still issue cheques
Secondly, if she knows her PIN she can get cash back at a Post Office or an ATM

I think she has a cheque book but I imagine she will make the argument that her entire bank account is frozen. She doesn't know her PIN either apparently.

You have done absolutely everything you can, more than most would do considering how she's tried to wash her hands of you when you needed her.

This is exactly what DH has said - she kicked me out when I needed someone/somewhere.

She does not feel guilty for how you (and in turn your kids) have been treated at her hands. Sod feeling guilty here; what have you got to feel guilty about when it comes to her anyway?. Nothing, your feelings of guilt here are totally misplaced when it comes to her. She saw you coming sadly and played and otherwise manipulated you to her advantage.

Read the website Out of the Fog (fear obligation guilt).

A PIN is not necessary to write a cheque to the person who did the work for her

Person who did work puts cheque into their bank

Assuming that there is money in the account to pay the cheque

She won’t write a cheque though as she is convinced her whole account is blocked.

I think she blocked her card by putting in the pin incorrectly but she is convinced any way of paying is blocked (including BACS and cheques)

I can’t contact her to point any of this out as she has my number blocked too!

She’s also refusing to go into the bank in person to try and resolve any of it - she has now also blocked my friend’s husband.

I wouldn’t pay the local shop. They won’t feed her forever so it will force her hand into getting the bank sorted. If you have the cash I’d be inclined to pay your friends husband and get the money back off him later if he manages to reclaim it - if you can trust him.
If you don’t or don’t want to then I’d let him take her to small claims.

Definitely don’t give her cash. It will only prolong this!