And so it continues - capacity and banking.

[victormeldrewcantbelieveit]

I've posted before about my 82 year old Grandmother, here's my previous thread for context:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/elderlyparents/5443012-lpa-dilemma?page=1

This was about 6 months ago.

It's happening again.

A few weeks ago I recommended the husband of one of my best friends to DGM via text as she needed some painting and decorating undertaking. It has now come to the point where she is trying to pay him (a week late) and she has managed to lock herself out of her bank again.

She is getting into an absolute tangle - she has said the bank won't pay it as they think it's fraud/it's a commercial invoice for a domestic job/numerous other things/she input a digit wrong and it has now been locked.

She has no access to any of her bank accounts as all of her cards again are frozen. She refuses to go into the bank in person to try and get this sorted and has gotten nasty with my friend's husband telling him to just 'take her bank to court' and to be 'careful what he suggests and who he listens to' when he asked if she was actually going to pay him.

Friend's husband suggested initially she transferred it to me for me to transfer to him which she refused to do as 'I don't like her'. She has no photo ID to take into the branch to verify her identity as the only ID she has is a passport which is locked into a safe which she has no access to. During this time she hasn't spoken to me (not in 2 weeks) and all info I have is second hand via my friend and her husband. DGM is reluctant to sort the banking and the local shop are giving her groceries for free daily, presumably until it's sorted. I rang the shop and tried to settle up for her, but they refused, and they said they think she actually is 'with it' and it's just a case of forgetting her PIN etc.

She owes my friend and her husband what I imagine is a considerable amount and clearly has no intention of sorting her bank out so she can pay it. She has no way to access cash for daily essentials and I can't see her local shop supporting her indefinitely (and quite rightly so!)

I tried to call her last night and again this morning multiple times so I can take her to her bank to try and get it sorted but she kept picking up the phone and hanging up immediately and then unplugged the phone and turned her mobile off too. I have no key for her house, nor do I have LPA. I offered to be LPA last year but she then took umbrage at something and told me not to bother. There is no way she would answer the door to me, and I'm at a loss at what to do next. I think we are going to have to pay my friend and her husband what is owed and I'm going to put some cash through her door this weekend to tide her over but she is screening every call from me (just like she did with the incident with her nephew last year).

I spoke to her GP yesterday who is going to invite her in under the guise of a health check to try and assess what is going on with her re capacity. She has told my friend's husband she has spoken to her solicitor about the banking issue (not that a solicitor can help), I rang her solicitor yesterday about her capacity and if they can send any concerns into the GP for more context but they said no due to GDPR.

I've spoken to SS this morning who are doing a check this afternoon but they said they can only get involved if DGM agrees to it which I know she won't.

She's so bloody stubborn and will not answer the phone to me when I'm the only family member left and I'm willing to help her.

If I'm honest I was initially thinking that there was some early dementia there but the more I think about it (not that I'm an expert) I think it's just some form of forgetfulness and a possible personality disorder getting worse as she ages (she has form going back as long as I know her for being obstinate, difficult and nasty).

Does anyone know what the next step would be should she refuse SS help and continue to ignore my calls and attempts to get in touch?

I wish I knew why she can't go into the bank on her own. I think she wants chauffeuring there hence why she asked him!

I think he said 'well let's get this sorted first' to keep her sweet and hope she pays him. If he said no before she pays him she will take umbrage again and then have more of a reason not to pay him (in her eyes) and he won't get a penny. She really is that difficult.

Good grief.
Drop the rope or she'll hang you with it 😡
And, yes, sadly, I do gabe experience of narcissistic family members and I cannot tell you the peace and happiness I now enjoy not speaking to them.
I just wish it hadn't taken me 50 years 😕

I would pay your friends husband then drop the rope and prioritize your husband and kids.

She has actually left me a voicemail this morning saying “Hi Victor, I think we need to get some clearing done don’t you? I’ll leave it for you to call me”.

I’m at a loss I really am.

I don’t think I will call her today as: 1. She has ignored me for the past few days and can wait and 2. If it descends into a row she will sulk tomorrow and not attempt to pay my friends.

Toughen your shell and just ignore it.
The line has been drawn, don't smudge it!

Your options are - don't contact her any more.
Or
If you do speak to her (don't call her back though), it needs to only be focused on getting the friend paid. If she talks about anything else, say "let's deal with that after we've sorted out X's payment". If she keeps talking about other things (she wants you to do) then keep repeating "I need to go now, I'll talk to you after we've sorted your bank" and put the phone down.

Your DM will need to take several different types of ID to the bank

They can sort out a new account, new PIN, unlock the account

Order a cheque book

I dont understand her reluctance to sort things out

Do you have POA ?
You should get this sorted out, so that it is ready to use in the future

I don't have POA - she asked me last year, I agreed and then she threw it back in my face in a temper.
I don't think there's any point in getting it sorted now as I'm 99% certain I'm stepping away going forward....

She has called friend's DH again this evening saying she isn't going into the bank tomorrow. Apparently it got rather heated and they ended up hanging up on each other. Friend's DH has now told her not to contact him on the phone until after payment has been sorted.

I do not understand her reluctance to go into the bank, at all.

This afternoon I drafted a message I intend to send her this week saying that I can't have her in my life anymore and that I had been trying to call her last week to arrange to take her to the bank so she can get sorted but she had thrown it back in my face by answering and immediately hanging up on me several times in succession. I feel sick at the idea of walking away though.

Think how much easier and stress free it’ll be without the constant drama . She cannot expect to have your care and assistance when she treats you
so badly . Stay strong and concentrate on your family .

I wouldn’t send that to her. She’ll just use it against you.
Just try to do what you can to get the payment for your friends husband sorted but nothing else. She’ll have to go out for food soon!

I agree with @fashionqueen0123 - she’ll either throw it back at you or find a way of blaming you. I would just drop the rope and pretend she doesn’t exist.

OP, if she’s just locked her pin she can unlock it at an ATM. She doesn’t need to go into the bank to do that.

If she doesn’t remember her pin she can call the bank for them to send her a pin reminder.

If she’s just trying to log into her bank account online she should be able to reset her log in details on their website or by calling them to send her a new one.

I’d suggest she just rings to them to check the status of her account i.e. is it locked due to them suspecting her of fraud/being frauded or has she just locked her pin.

Either way i wouldn’t be paying the friend but I’d be telling him to take her to small claims court for the money.

If it means she has to go to court then so be it. She sounds like a horrible person.

Her GP called me today, obviously they can't go into any detail but they were asking me about my concerns. They are going to liaise with SS and the GP is going to get the safeguarding lead at the surgery involved going forward. I don't think they will be able to give me any updates but they said they are happy to listen to any concerns I have in the future and will add them to her file/notes.

I’d suggest she just rings to them to check the status of her account i.e. is it locked due to them suspecting her of fraud/being frauded or has she just locked her pin.

My friend said DGM told her husband she was on the phone last week to the fraud team. I do wonder if due to the fiasco with her nephew last year (where I think she did say to the bank she suspected her nephew of trying to access it even though it was her forgetting her pin), the bank are being even more hyper vigilant with her than they would have been had this situation not happened before?

She has also said that the pin she has always used just doesn't work any more, I am assuming the pin doesn't work due to the card/account being frozen.

I don't think she has access to her online banking any more - a while ago she asked me to order her a load of stuff on Amazon, I asked her if she could send me the payment up front as I didn't have any money in my bank. She then told me she didn't have access to her account to pay me. Why she was asking me to order her stuff when she had no means of reimbursing me... I have no idea.

On a side note I don't think I have ever known my dh as furious as he has been this past week (or for him to utterly loathe someone as much as he does DGM) - our week and weekend were ruined as I was so angry at her for clearing my calls when I was trying to help her/feeling guilty for reaching the decision to walk away/feeling resentful as I'm the only one left standing in the family/bitter that I've let her cast a dark shadow over our lives for so long.

I've just re-listened to the voicemail she left yesterday where she said about getting some "clearing done" between us. Her voice doesn't sound sorry or conciliatory; she sounds antagonistic and as though she is spoiling for a fight. The last time she called me to 'clear the air' between us, she screamed at me, hung up on me and didn't talk to me for 6 months until the guilt took over and I relented and contacted her again.

I've no idea yet if she has tried to contact friend's DH today - he was working in an area with poor signal so my friend couldn't update me. I believe he has told DGM not to phone him any more until payment has been sorted as it's utterly disgraceful she was ringing him on a Sunday evening and getting nasty with him.

I’ve just looked at your previous thread and see I replied, saying I would not accept LPA in your situation. You had a lucky escape!

I'm glad the GP seems to be taking some action now, and getting Social Services involved.

You say there may be early dementia - I disagree, it’s more advanced dementia. The inability to handle her finances, the paranoia, the making contradictory nonsensical statements. The reason she won’t go into the bank is because she doesn’t really understand what’s happening and would not be able to cope in that situation. She's terminally confused, and that makes her even more angry.

I can see why you want to pay your friend’s husband, but other than that, as several posters said on your previous thread, step back. You have done all you can, you do not need to do any more.

Some people can't or won't be helped. I had a thread about my elderly friend who has fallen in with a chap she keeps giving money to. Police and social services are now involved but she's cut me off after many years of friendship and a lot of support I've given her... nothing to be done, basically.

My friend said DGM told her husband she was on the phone last week to the fraud team.

This isn't your problem, but it's possible scammers called her claiming to be her bank's fraud team (scammer trick 101) and possibly they have accessed her account. Let's hope not.

Message from my friend this evening - DGM has managed to get into her account (think she must have gone into the branch) and has paid!

I'm so sorry - it's such a tough situation isn't it?

When I spoke to SS this morning they said they would call me with an update which didn't happen - I chased them up this afternoon and they said they can't tell me anything including if they even made contact with her this afternoon but that the 'referral was in process' which makes me wonder if maybe she has spoken to them and asked them not to tell me anything?

They can't tell you anything because they're not allowed to. You don't have LPA so unless she specifically asks them to deal with you, her confidentiality has to be respected. If your neighbour reported you to SS would you want them to be given feedback? You night be related to DGM, but in this regard it makes no difference. She's entitled to get privacy every bit as much as you are.

I get that it's massively frustrating, but adults with capacity get to have have their privacy respected.

Totally get this - her GP said from the outset that there was nothing they could tell me etc. when I spoke to them too - completely appreciate the confidentiality aspect.

It's more that when I spoke to SS on Friday morning to report my concerns they initially said they would knock on her door on Friday afternoon and the person attending would be given my number and would update me - so when I called back and was told they couldn't say anything it just seemed a little contradictory to what I had been informed that morning. But the second phone call seems to fit with what the protocol is as I now understand it - maybe there was something lost in translation in the first call!