State of FIL house

[Hohofortherobbers]

My FIL has a mild dementia diagnosis and COPD, lives with SIL who never left home and I believe is ND, but never diagnosed. MIL died long time ago. He's not coping with looking after the house, SIL has never been one for housework. The house is now becoming a health hazard. I got them to agree to cleaners , found them, booked them, they came but FIL made it very difficult for them by insisting they dont dust as he didn't want them touching his things, he's a collector. There's items of his collection everywhere, lots of shelves holding hundreds of them, all gathering dust. He then decided the cleaners hadn't done a good enough job and said they couldn't come back. I try to give a room a freshen up when I'm there but he tells me off, that he can do it and stop touching things. But in the same breath he moans that it's dirty. Now they have mice, my DH is doing the same as me, trying to help but not getting anywhere. He's closer to giving up and letting them rot in their own filth than I am though. Any words of wisdom? We've had paramedics in twice and they must think we're cruel leaving them to live this way. He doesnt leave the house so no chance of a sneak in and clean. I think the house will end up killing them, its getting so cluttered, as each of them have a hoarding tendency and the dust must exacerbate his COPD.

Is it just the dust or is there mouldy food, clutter etc?

If he has ill health he must go to the Drs or hospital sometime? If you could get him to allow you to dust you could then buy an air purifier?

Not mouldy food, but food stored in unusual places that the mice must just love. Lots of clutter, lots of dust, he's got an elderly dog too that sheds and smells a bit, her dry food is everywhere, treats dropped and not eaten etc.
Not been in hospital recently and then there's the SIL problem if I were to go round and start cleaning, she'd find that very intrusive. She's a big part of the problem.
Can only imagine an air purifier would be yet another thing to collect dust. The prospect of sorting this house out one day is terrible

Paramedics won’t blame you for the state of the house, it’s a common issue. Elderly people with more than enough money for cleaners refusing to accept them. I wouldn’t be trying to do it yourself as from experience the chores will expand exponentially.

If it’s a health hazard I would consider putting in a report to social services, in fact because of the mice I would just go ahead and do that. The place is unsanitary and your DFILs living conditions need to be investigated.

The mice sound bad.

First thing to do is to let go of worrying about what other people think. That will drive you mad.

Would he agree to a cleaner just for the bathroom and kitchen? That way the food prep, toilet and washing areas would at least be cleaner and they’ve got less likelihood of progressing to rats.

Just be open and blunt about the dust and its likely impact. Though I’m not sure the dust would make that much difference to his COPD would it? Mould might though.

It sounds as if they both may be neurodiverse tbh.

I wouldn't worry about paramedics or anyone who has to come in to the home, they will have seen it all and more. You only have to browse this board to know how often it's not down to 'neglectful children '.
I do the occasional bit of cleaning if DM is incapacitated and/or something is very bad, otherwise I can't bang my head against that brick wall any more.

I have a family member like this. He's always going to 'sort it out' but never does. Won't accept any help. Only very reluctantly let's anyone in the house, on very rare occasions. I too think it will kill him one day.

Have you seen the clutter image rating scale? For some reason I can't attach it here. But if you click the button on the link it takes you to a scale that helps identify how 'bad' the clutter is. Anything above a 4 they encourage people to get help for their hoarding. Where is the house on this scale @Hohofortherobbers ?

https://hoardingdisordersuk.org/clutter-image-ratings/

You’ve done your very best. You can’t do any more.

It doesn’t matter what other people think.

Don’t get stressed about it, it’s not worth it. Let them live the way they want to, it’s not a reflection on you.
If you want to do something, refer to social services confidentially.

I think all you can do is a referral to Adult Social Services. If they have mice, it is hard to get rid of an infestation if there is food around for them to get into and they multiply at an alarming rate!

The only thing you can do is contact adult social care and make a safeguarding report under self neglect. With a mild dementia diagnosis they will need to have him on their radar as his cognition will worsen over time and they should complete a capacity assessment. I had to do this for DAunt with similar issues. It is not a quick fix as if they have capacity they can refuse help which DAunt did. They can act on hoarding if it causes fire safety issues that would impact the safety of others, but it is not simple. They may also act on the pest control issue. DAunt at first agreed to allow a visit from the fire brigade and then refused it. I had to complete several safeguarding referrals as the situation rapidly worsened once she stopped eating and her cognition declined swiftly as a result. Social care repeatedly stated she had capacity. Her GP was useless. She ended up having a fall due to clutter in the home which resulted in admission to hospital, it was only then that the hospital doctors fully listened and declared her to not have the capacity to keep herself safe. She died in the hospital a few weeks later. If I had my time again I would get a private assessment of mental capacity completed by a professional rather than waiting for social care if the situation was deteriorating. This is what my neighbour did for her sister when she was unsafe at home (wandering with dementia) which enabled her to organise care for her DSis.

My DF who has COPD, is likely ND and now has dementia (as yet undiagnosed by memory team but a CT of his head showed obvious changes) is very resistant to all change in his home. Everything being where it should be allows him to map his world, fills gaps in his short term memory which enables him to feel like he knows what is going on and reduces his anxiety. Anxiety is massive when you are confused by the world around you due to changes in your cognition. He has been miles better since the GP started him on citalopram for anxiety around his breathing. Far less controlling about his environment allowing people to help with cleaning, helping him with his meals and self care which he neglected before. I find he listens to doctors more than me so if FIL listens to his GP it might be worth your DH speaking to them about his concerns.

My PIL are like this. We tried to help, they insisted the house was fine, nothing needed doing. In the end I said to DH he could go and see them but me and the children wouldn’t be going over until it wasn’t so dirty. It was a complete health hazard - mouldy plates, the dog had worms and used to rub his bum along the carpet etc. it stunk. It made the relationship very difficult, but they managed to get a cleaner. To add - they have plenty of money to do so.

My GP were like this- DM used to send Dsis and I round to visit. One of us would hide behind a bush and then sneak in with the flash wipes and stealth clean the bathroom and kitchen when the other one was talking to them in the sitting room. Fortunately they were both quite deaf so didn’t hear me but I did once have to hide in the boiler cupboard when they came in to make more tea. We laugh about it now but it was really stressful at the time. Honestly the house was awful but they just couldn’t “see” it.

You have tried OP but if he isn't receptive to help it's very difficult.I agree with contacting the council about the mice as that could escalate at pace if they have food to eat and places to nest. Would FIL be open to keeping all his treasures in one room do you think? That way they could be untouched but the rest of the house more hygienic.

Social care don't have to accept private capacity assessments when it comes to funding services. They have to do their own.

Thank you for the replies and reassurance. Its actually really comforting to know we're not alone in this 💕.
The images of hoarding are also comforting, its not where near this bad, a 2 for the house perhaps, a 3 for SILs bedroom. However 1 bedroom is totally inaccessible due to boxes of FILs collection , cannot even open door beyond 12".
Its more the dust, grime and mice. The collection has years if dust which has become grime stuck all over it. Imagine hundreds of small items that probably need to be soaked in hot soapy water and scrubbed 😬.
According to FIL they're worth a fortune and we can sell them individually on eBay for £20 a pop one day, he's delusional, just cos he paid that much doesn't mean anyone else is stupid enough to. As if I've got the time and inclination to dedicate my life to selling his crap. DH is of sane opinion, he thinks we'll just put it in a skip when the time comes.

He's also developed this compulsive behavior, printing photos of similar items of the Internet and putting them in photo albums. He prints hundreds out, fills an album a day the boxes it up and puts it in that jam packed bedroom. He doesn't even look at them once he's filled the album. It's irrational, they'll just be scrapped. He spends a fortune each week on printer ink, photographic paper and albums, in excess of £200 probably which creates more clutter and will just be thrown away.
I say he spends, but my DH arranges this as he has poa for finances , he tries to limit him, but if he doesn't receive the delivery he just gets a taxi to WHSmith and buys it himself for 5 times the price 😣
Thank you all, just saying this out loud is cathartic

@ThroughTheRedDoor thank you for posting that link. That’s very useful guidance.

Not sure there is much you can do sadly OP but I would try to get your FIL to allow you to take the dog to the vet for a check up. It doesn't sound like either he or the SIL is able to take care of the dog and she may well be suffering.

Firstly, please do not beat yourselves up about what the paramedics may think. You are not “cruel children” or failing them because you cannot magically make two adults accept help. Houses like this do not become this way because nobody cares, they become this way because there is often a knot of dementia, anxiety, attachment to possessions, loss of control, isolation and exhaustion.
I looked after my mum through dementia, and one thing I learned is that “but it’s dirty” often does not land when a person sees their belongings as safety, identity or control. The house can become a third difficult family member, with very strong opinions and no willingness to compromise.
It may help to stop aiming for “getting the whole house sorted” for now and focus on the smallest safety wins: a clear route to the door, a usable bathroom, safe food-preparation surfaces, removal of food attracting mice, and pest control. Those are health and safety issues, not a judgement on anyone’s housekeeping.
Your husband may have more luck framing it around keeping his dad independent rather than cleaning: “We want to help you stay in your own home and protect your lungs. Nobody will touch your collection. Could we just have someone do the kitchen and bathroom, or clear one safe walkway?” Giving very specific reassurance that nothing will be thrown away or moved without permission can make it feel less like an invasion.
A cleaner who agrees to a strict “no touching possessions” rule, but cleans only the kitchen, toilet and floors around them, could be a gentler starting point. Even a short regular visit can be better than waiting for the mythical day when everyone suddenly agrees to a full clear-out.
Because there are mice, food in unusual places, heavy dust and COPD involved, I would also speak to the GP, local adult social care team or dementia service and describe the situation plainly. Not as “they are messy”, but: “There is an infestation, the home may be unsafe, COPD could be affected, help is being refused, and we are worried they may not be managing safely.” They cannot necessarily force a clear-out, but they can assess the risks and help bring in the right support.
And please do not try to solve this by repeatedly pushing until you all break. Keep the tone calm, offer small choices, deal with the urgent risks first, and let professionals share some of the weight. Paramedics have seen far more than most families can imagine. They are there to care for people, not award marks for skirting boards.
You and your DH sound as though you are trying very hard in a situation where every option feels wrong. That is not neglect. That is a very difficult family trying to keep people safe.

True and mental capacity can fluctuate and is decision and time specific, but if a person is self-funding and you have LPOA then you can at least begin to act on their behalf to engage care services. You can also appeal any decision to reject the private assessment. It would be lovely if social care would actually support families to safeguard their loved ones so this wasn't required, unfortunately in my experience they can fail to correctly assess capacity.

In my DAunt's case a social work assistant (not a qualified social worker) kept deciding that she had capacity because she stated she didn't need any help. She was left opening the door to strangers half naked, eating only old mouldy melted tubs of ice cream, refusing help yet openly telling them when asked how will you get food? 'I don't know, something will work itself out' when they knew full well she had no means to get herself food as she didn't leave the house and wouldn't accept food deliveries (they saw this first hand when they were there and I ordered an online shop to be delivered). I complained multiple times to the GP and social care trying to get them to safeguard her. They failed her. The day before she was admitted a crew of paramedics left her at home after a fall because she stated she didn't want to go to hospital. That was after the GP had finally listened and assessed her as no longer having capacity and completed another urgent safeguarding to social care. The GP then called another crew of paramedics that found her on the floor again scooped her up and took her to hospital. Both they and hospital doctors treating her were shocked at the state of her, she was under six stone in weight and very malnourished.

@redboxer321the dog is adored, by FIL it is very well cared for. But it does shed which adds to the mess and does have a typical dog smell. The dog and his collection are the only things ge cares about. He was a violent father and we've recently discovered he was a violent husband, this recent revelation has added to my dh's current apathy about the situation. He just wants to walk away from a father he's totally disappointed by 😞

My friend works for the council (as an independent contractor) dealing with situations like this. It’s a psychological disorder, you can’t just go in and clean. What happens is (generally) a relative reports to SS the issues and they go round have a look and guess get the person to agree to get some help. My friend is then employed and goes to deal with it. She has seen some shocking cases, but has the educational and experience to help. She’s been hit, she’s been shouted at, she’s been spat at. But it’s because the objects in the house, be they a valuable book or photo, or a piece of trash, means something. She has done great work and tries to work with the clients to get a system in place so they don’t return to the state things were before. Your FIL needs professional help, not a cleaner.

Leave them to rot in their own filth and minimise contact. Don’t formally cut contact, but take a step back. You cannot help and you cannot fix. So you’re better concentrating on your DH, family and home.

This might sound callous, but it isn’t.

Agree with this. You can't change your FIL and SIL, all you can change is your reaction and how it affects you. Support your DH in walking away. You have done more than enough for someone who doesn't sound like they deserve much from you at all.

Have you thought about contacting your local Fire Service and asking them to do a home safety check? They are amazing. They will turn up and can say that they are doing it for all homes in the area - they will look at the state of the house and offer safety advice, but can also make safeguarding referrals to other agencies if they are concerned. You don't need to tell FIL that you arranged it, just have them turn up. You can request it online. It might be a way to send in some support in a subtle way while distancing yourself.

Best wishes to you. You sound lovely and caring. Please don't let SIL and FIL be the millstones that drag down your joy. x

@Hohofortherobbers your DH is not under any obligation to care for his parent, especially not one who abused him. He can do the social care safeguarding referral or contact his GP with safeguarding concerns and then back away. If they try to ask him what help he can provide make sure they know that he isn't prepared to help/care for them.