Anyone share experience of intransigent parents who don't want to plan...

[Thingything]

Wondering if anyone has experienced intransigent / stubborn elderly parents and been able to navigate the process gracefully?

My parents are getting very elderly and have a host of health problems. My mother needs round the clock care and can't care for herself at all, and she has mental capacity challenges (so as not to drip feed - brain injury, she can talk and is mostly herself but has memory issues and can't do much physically) so can't manage money or anything. She told me recently she doesn't have any idea even who their energy supplier is or what their bank details are. She's never done power of attorney stuff as my dad has always managed all their money and stuff anyway, she's never worked.

My dad is lovely but head totally in the sand. He accepts they are getting old. He accepts they have a lot of mobility issues. We had the 'big talk' on whether they'd consider downsizing from their big house into something more manageable and closer to me so I could help them (no. no. no. was the answer). But now I'm trying to persuade them to at least do the very basics such as lasting power of attorney so I (or a sibling) can look after my mum if my dad is incapacitated or dead and to write down at least the basics like which bank they use. Getting absolutely nowhere.

I think it's all triggering for them to engage in this stuff as reminds them of their own parents' demise but I'm so frustrated as I know it's a case of 'when' not 'if' something like a fall happens and if that happens with nothing planned or documented then it will be an absolute nightmare.

DH and I are in our late 50s and have already put a file together with our wills, solicitor’s details, bank, pensions, life assurance account numbers and company contact details, plus details of utilities and the people who we trust to do work on/in the house eg the boiler annual maintenance.

Our DS25 has a digital copy and knows where the hard copy is in the house, as does DS17.

Neither I nor DH have this level of information from our parents. I am the back up PoA for both my DF and DSM, and I’m very lucky that my DSM is highly competent in finance and basically everything else, and younger. As long as she is well, I don’t worry about the situation there.

PIL are both well currently, but like DF, in their 80s. I’m not sure how DH and BIL should approach this with them, so I’m following with interest.

At the very least, could you look in their wallet/purse when you next see them to at least work out which banks they are with? I know that’s not a great thing to do, but if problems arise and you can’t find their wallets or any details such as folders of bank statements, you would at least know which banks to contact.

It's so difficult. It's been a long slow process with my DP but after a year I got them to accept visiting carers once a week, progressing to once a day, and now (as DM has just come out of hospital) they have a temporary live in carer who I'm hoping we will convert to a permanent arrangement.

Luckily they were smart enough to set up Financial PoA about 15 years ago, & agreed (a bit reluctancy) to H&W LPA a few months ago, when it became clear DM's memory was going fast.

I spent a lot of time reading their post (opened letters left lying around) to try & understand some of their key issues and the big breakthrough was when they agreed to activate financial LPA about 2 years ago and gave me access to their finances. This was most reassuring as they had always complained of not having enough money which is very far from true & means I can now persuade them to implement key improvements e.g. installing an accessible bathroom knowing they can afford it. We have missed the boat for downsizing.

But we still disagree about some things which can lead to arguments

Watching again with interest. Welcome @Thingything you have found your tribe, unfortunately. However you will get lots of support and advice. The hardest bit is when the EPs will not accept outside help usually along the lines of ‘ I don’t want strangers in my house’ which needs to interpreted as ‘I expect you to do it’. But when you do step up I will criticise everything you do, play you off against siblings, throw away perfectly lovely meals and food. It is far to much of a regular occurrence seeing these elderly people think it is ok to behave so poorly towards those of us who are lets be honest not young. I am cuff the mind I will be dead before my parents. Stress, turmoil, conflict all because of stubbornness. Keep us updated you may well be able to get some help and they may agree. Sorry for the slight derail.

We're only in our 40s and have all you have - document with key information detailed, wills etc and copies given to key trusted people because god forbid something happen to us and our poor kids were left not only bereaved but destitute!

This is why I find it hard to approach the situation with my parents without emotion because it feels they are being so selfish avoiding doing something which emotionally, I know will be hard, but as a time commitment can all be wrapped up in a few hours!

Sorry - couldn’t edit above…should read I am of the mind not cuff.

I have stepped Right back but the anxiety and stress is awful.

My mother refused to do POA, I could not begin to tell you the mess I had to deal with.
Her stubbornness caused my brother and I a lot of grief.

My mother is 87 and will not be proactive at all. It’s SO frustrating. She will not wear a falls alarm although she had at least 3 falls last year, she won’t move anything in her house and there is SO much clutter … she cannot face the reality of her own mortality I think.

I get a mixed response to my efforts from my DP. They often express their gratitude for everything I do to help them - and it is a lot and takes a lot of my time.

But when I suggest something that DF disagrees with he lets me have it with both barrels.

Tell your dad how much an LPA costs (not much) compared to not having one and needing a solicitor and court for everything. That was the only argument that worked with my DM.

She is refusing to plan otherwise as apparently plans don't work. She's really struggling and it's a shitshow.

I had my Bil here telling us all his travel plans (for Pil) and saying we'd be sorting things, as we're local. I don't mind too much because he's not wrong but if you don't have to do the work, you have no clue how much is done.

Is there another family member/ vicar etc they might listen to? I am so grateful a financial advisor told my ils they needed poa.

@Thingything I also suggest you find ways for other people to tell your parents what they should do.

Martin Lewis talks about how important it is for everyone to do LPoAs.

Like @thesandwich said, vicar, other family, friends, neighbours - anyone they respect. I’ve found lots of people who have had to deal with their own parents that are willing to talk about LPAs saving time, stress, and money.

Our father was persuaded to talk to ‘his solicitor’ who had handled his house purchase and our mother’s estate and written his will - they were worth all the extra money it cost compared to the lower fee of trying to do it ourselves - they were also very helpful when we needed to start using the LPAs.

My MIL didn’t have one when we needed it, so we missed the boat on that and are having to go to court to try to sort it out. My mum is watching us struggle with it all and still won’t do anything, even though I’ve begged her. She just says it doesn’t matter because if she loses capacity, she won’t know what’s going on anyway, completely missing the point that someone will need to pick up the pieces. She’s always been totally selfish.

Yes and I started a recent post on the Dementia board about my MIL, it’s so frustrating, that they will not do anything to help relatives in the long run, especially as she is losing her memory.

We have no POA, she will not entertain it, no diagnosis, as she will not make a doctors appointment, will not let me organise a cleaner, despite telling me every week she’s not doing any cleaning and on and on.

So I hear you, it’s frustrating and quite frankly infuriating, goodness knows how we will sort her money out if she forgets her PIN number or ends up in a home.

To all of you, with or without H and W LPA, if the person is stubbornly it’s just such a mess. Capacity is something I agree needs to be addressed however in some cases the person manipulating us knows full well they can move goal posts.
In is exhausting.

I have downsized and importantly decluttered years before I needed to because at the rate I am going I will be mid seventies still dealing with my mother who has zero ailments but acts like a toddler/Norma Desmond.

My own adult daughter is concerned I will be dead long before my mother.

I know some people don’t like it, but I went the emotional blackmail route.

“I don’t want to be struggling with grief and sorting out your affairs. I’ll be all alone why would you leave me with such a headache. Don’t you love me? Why do you want me to have a hard life”

Squeeze out a couple of tears. Give a couple of examples and relatives. Then I just went on and on and on and about it.

sometimes in the middle of conversation I’d go quiet and when asked bring it up again…I was insufferable

a couple of times a month for ages. I got a brick wall for it bent but it worked eventually.

it’s immature but nothing else was working and I was at my wits end. Sorted now with some teeth gritting and tongue biting thrown in.

Also you have to use of examples of people they know who have either had the same experience and not dealt with or friends who had to deal with the paperwork.

we had recently lost quite a few people so it was very fresh for them. Which helped.

I found framing LPAs as a form of 'insurance policy' helped to persuade reluctant elderlies.

'You insure your house and contents every year, Mum. Of course you hope you'll never have to use it but you still do it. It's just a back-up in case things go wrong. We can all sadly be involved in a car accident anytime - it just means someone could help out with paying your bills if you were in hospital'.

Have you done your own LPA? Might that help - as it’s not something old people do, it’s something everyone does

Would you mind elaborating on what happened a little please as it would be helpful to use in our case.
Of Course if it’s too painful, that’s fine. Thanks.

No POA meant her home was haemorrhaging money as she was in a nursing home and we had no power to stop all her outgoings, insurances, WiFi, phone etc etc.
We needed to get the city council to defer the home fees.
it took 9 months to get guardianship so we could sell the house, to get guardianship is £800 if you pay a lawyer, I did it myself but it wasn’t easy, page after page!
We eventually sold the house but she had taken out equity release without telling us.
The whole thing was a shit show.
My mother was selfish and malicious.

What worked with FIL was telling him that if he didn't set up POA social services would be making any decisions about his care/money not family. He was on it next day!

I’m with @beAsensible1 - in a situation where people won’t make the decisions of an adult, fight fire with fire and make it more uncomfortable for them to keep avoiding the issue than for them to do it. And print the paperwork out, put it in front of them.

I have been grateful every day for over four years that my mother sorted out financial LPA. She wouldn’t do the health one so is stuck in a living death because for a long time, by the time we managed to argue the case that she should be under palliative care, she was being aggressively overtreated. (We’re finally past that stage but you would not believe how long it took or how many fights). I agree with doing your own and telling her about it, but definitely do the emotional blackmail if you have to.

Like some PP, I found my parents were better at "planning" when they were in their 50s than they are now (in their 80s). In their late 50s they downsized to a groundfloor flat, explicitly saying this was better place to live as they aged. This flat has a 2nd en suite bedroom where an agency carer could stay if needed. I'm finding any conversations about "how do we support you to have the best life possible as you age", I get replies like "I can't imagine that." I know all my dad hears is "You're feeble and can't take care of yourself". I am working on how to reframe my message to something they can hear as opportunity not depressing assessment. They didn't outright reject option of a PT live-in carer. I have a cousin I'd like to invite to act as a housemate to the disabled parent occasionally when my healthy parent wants to travel... I haven't figured out how to broach that convo yet.

There is a split going on because I think step-mum is ready to give up driving & just Uber everywhere; she seems to be refusing to ride in a car with Dad who will not give up driving until he is forced to. I don't want to talk about this openly.

They mentioned a friend who has moved into the very same assisted living place I secretly researched. My parents haven't been to visit Friend although they hear it's nice.... I suspect it's too expensive for them. Anyway, they wouldn't dream of spending their wealth on that place or any like it, whether they can afford it or not I don't rightly know. My dad was joking there must be regular resident poker games in there and he would like that aspect.

On paper, Their finances & wills are in good order, TG, but they seem to be in denial that they may need that wealth to pay for care needs. No way are they ready for convos like PoA.

What age are your DPs?
Mine thankfully sorted out their POA about 10 years ago long before it was needed, but I suspect had they not had it in place it would have been a different matter to consider when it looked likely to be needed. Maybe they are also put off by potential cost and if it will be complicated. If it’s possible to print out forms for them and make it simple then that might help.
I found as my DPs got older whilst an adult to adult relationship was where I would start, their executive functioning has become impaired so I would sometimes have to treat them more like surly teenagers or even toddlers to get things done.

My DM (widowed) has a will in place but is reluctant to do a LPoA as she hates spending money, even though she has tens of thousands in the bank. I do worry how I'll manage her bills and stuff if she's incapacitated as not everything of hers is set up on DD. It's a worry.

The thing that concerned me in your OP was that you said your DM has a brain injury and memory problems. To be able to sign a LPoA you must have full mental capacity, show that you're setting it up by choice and understand what you're doing. Would your DM be able to do this?