mid 80s difficult dm - I tried everything

[frenchpharmacy]

I wrote here few times before and got valuable responses. I read recommended books, I am in therapy, I practice FOG, grey rock and JADE. I set firm boundaries by not calling everyday but only 2x a week now. Just when I had my therapy session yesterday and I cried to the point even my therapist was moved, I received a call today from my DM reprimending me for not calling her. The twist: we usually speak at around 8pm, she did not call at 8pm, no no no, she waited till 10.30pm called and reprimanded me. No matter what I do, how hard I try to set boundaries, protect myself, she has the power. I had to explain myself (that was expected) and I said I will call tomorrow eveing but now I am already stressed 24h ahead. Over 25y ago I moved out from what was a home full of rigour, I moved abroad to distance myself but here we are all these years later still controlled. Two failed marraiges, no children, just trying to keep my head above water.

Why didn't you call at 8pm? why wait for her to call if she's difficult? Weren't you getting worried by 10:30 pm if you expected a call at 8 pm from a woman in her 80's?

I have a difficult relationship with my mum too. She's late 80s, lives in a Community where she can meet up with friends and neighbours every day easily, but seems to think I should be visiting more. I go once a week, that's all I can bear to be honest. She treats me like a child, wants to know what I'm doing when I'm on my phone, talks me to do my jacket up/ wear a hat/ wear a vest! She talks over me, doesn't listen to what I'm saying. I hate visiting and only do it because I have to. I count down the time until I can leave. I often don't pick up when she rings. I'm trying to look after myself (chronic pain condition, long term depression). If I don't ring during the week I get told off.

X

God yes its hard. I find mine bit nosey I def dont tell her too much. I had to remind her Im in my 50s..!

I have a similar but different relationship with my father. Was always controlling and angry but has become x100 in old age and very demanding. Nothing I do.is good enough etc etc.

I can give you advice about phone calls etc but ultimately you need to realise (and your therapy will be good for this) that she won't change. She'll never be the mother you wanted or needed, she'll never see things from your point of view or realise you have needs of your own.

Set the bare minimum you can bare to speak to her and go on through the motions. Act like it's your job, like a social worker or carer. Take all emotions out of it as it will never change and that's not your fault.

Thank you for suggesting this, I think I was subconsciously doing it after time with my DF and I stopped. Will start again!

Coming back with 2 questions. I wasnt sure if I shoudl start a new thread but maybe someone here will reply.
I applied many of your tips and therapy also helps to manager the difficulties.
(1) DM has been mentioning (now each time we speak) daughters of people she know who are looking after their elderly mothers, there is one who took mother under her roof, there is another who receives carers support in a large sum )I checked the sum is pennies equivalent to UK, DM lives abroad), another daughter who looks after another mother. At thsi rate there wont be enough daughters by the end of this year. Once I took it as anecdotal, twice as a coincidence, but after that I feel this is deliberate to make me feel guilty, to yet again show me how I am not enough. Would you feel the same?
I use a grey rock to manage this but it gets unbearble.
(2) A bit related to the previous one - DM has a garden, we discussed (5 years ago) to get a gardner at least twice a year (spring and autumn). Gardner came once. She didnt like it as aparently too expensive. I suspect the gardner wanted a regular gig and she didnt. Even if he came every 2 months she would get a garden to enjoy not to complain about to me. Today she complained how hard she worked in the garden tidying up all the leaves. I reminded her of the gardner (I am being ridiculous), I suggested a leaf hoover (too heavy for her). Complaining about it however was absolutely fine. Again another tool to make me feel guilty. I was about to say - then just dont do it. Just leave it and stop moaning about it. I did not say anything. I just bit my tongue but thinking about it now halp past one in the morning - I can not make anything right, not one suggestion is met with at least 'oh ok maybe I think about it' Nooo this would mean problem solved and unable to be a martyr.

What would you do?

You need to metaphorically put your fingers in your ears and lalala, can't hear your. Just say "oh" and no further reaction. Or have a mental bingo card and tick off as she complains. Have to stop yourself yelling "house" out loud though.

Just say no . Fgs you don’t have to take her calls when it doesn’t suit you . Tell her you’ll ring once a week on a given day to check in and that’s all . I don’t understand all this angst about contact with her . Set boundaries and keep to them or go NC . She’s in her 80’s she’s only a threat if you allow her to be .

If she calls at 10.30 and you don’t want to speak with her, don’t answer the phone. You do have a choice.

how much of her grumbles and moans actually genuinely need any input from you?

My mum has a weekly gardener now at £25 a week, your mum is actually doing a lot of it herself which is great for her overall health. None of this conversation requires any actual action from you, as a pp said, play bingo with her very predictable grumbles. So sympathetic noises and ‘well you do have the option of a gardener mum, why don’t you call the chap you had before? Oh ok your choice at least it’s getting you outside.’

if it’s nothing you can genuinely help with, which let’s face it from a different country most of it is, just sympathetic noises, a couple of suggestions a few ‘ I get that but it is an option for you’. Lots of ‘No I can’t do that my life is here’.

One thing I have found with my mum as she’s got older is she gets very stressed if schedules change, if the cleaner doesn’t come on the day she’s supposed to, so set expectations ahead of time, One of the big mistakes I’ve made is popping in on my way to a hobby on a Sunday so she now expects it gets annoyed if we don’t and manufactures excuses for us to go up, one day it was literally the clothes horse was wonky she’d phoned us a bit drunk and my lovely DH felt sorry for her. (It’s an hour round trip to put the bloody clothes horse up)

Ive found the best way to handle this is to set expectations ahead of time. Try and limit your phone calls to a couple of times a week, but vary the times, start by oh mum I can’t phone Thursday as I’ve a thing, but I’ll try and call over the weekend.

From what you’ve said though the biggest issue for you (and me tbh) is switching off and away from it when you put the phone down. What do you do for you, I find the gym and cold water swimming helps. The cold water especially as it completely switches off all those voices in your head.

1. I told my DM to stop telling me about all the other daughters.
2. Stop trying to fix whatever it is she's complaining about. If she was someone who would wanted advice fine go ahead, but she does not, she just wants to complain. It's pointless, and you are wasting your time and energy. Say "Hmm, oh dear" and change the subject.

sorry to a pain but am I right to feel as those 'daughter' comments of all the 'daughters who look after their mothers' are deliberate right? I am just checking whether I am overly sensitive or others would feel the same?

One of the things that really helped when my FIL was an arse was a bingo card method I read about years ago. Put all the frequent flyer things on a list (other peoples family doing stuff, never see you, I'll die alone - whatever) and then tick them off. Just the sillyness of having a bingo card and the distraction of getting 'X thinks you are terrible' and instead of it hurting your brain says 'yay, thats another one' takes the sting out. Make yourself a bingo win tub of treats.

Also, you don't have to respond to things or challenge them. Just going for 'Hmm, really' or 'interesting thought' gives them enough response to stop a rant but neutral for your brain.

Its worth exploring with your therapist that you need to let go of the hope that she will have a lifelong turn and appreciate/celebrate you and be the mum you deserved. She won't change (in fact most get worse) and accepting and processing that is key to coping with the amount of contact you want

@frenchpharmacy they are deliberate to guilt trip you into doing things for her. It’s manipulative and coercive-try not to get sucked in. I did and it made me ill. Even then nothing I did was right so I stopped.

Probably, but again what can you do about it? Nothing, so you just need to rinse and repeat ‘that’s nice, but I live here mum, can you sort a cleaner/gardener etc they’d help you out.’Just don’t rise to the insinuations.

Of course it's deliberate. Her very transparent plan is that you will realize that you should drop everything and come and look after her.
I'd say most of what she says is to make you feel bad.

Have you tried playing a game on your phone like Tetris when you're talking to her so you only have half your concentration on the conversation?

Mentioning the daughters - yes it's obviously deliberate.

The garden - also deliberate, the only solution she wants is for you to do it.

Have you tried Mumsnetting while she's talking and just going 'mmm' every now and then to sound like you are listening? Love the Tetris idea as well. It's not as if she listens to you so why should you be listening back?

Spelling out Fuck Off with your tongue on the roof of your mouth is also surprisingly effective.

I do feel quite sorry for many older people- whilst at the same time finding them bloody frustrating and needy . My FIL now 86 is a lovely old guy, very intelligent, mobile, self sufficient ( no carer or cleaner etc) however he does call my H every evening and sometimes several times a day about total non entity stuff - but nearly all his friends have died, he’s in an area where he doesn’t know many people and a lot of local things for older people are no longer a thing ‘day centres’ etc or he finds them depressing and full of old unwell people. He has been on his own for 6 years now and whilst he is amazing for his age it’s a little sad that it comes for many with a fair bit of almost self imposed isolation. — he simply doesn’t want to join stuff I suggest - I know my H finds the nightly ritual calls a little depressing - his other son simply doesn’t call him more than maybe once a week and for some reason my FIL doesn’t call them very often either- I just feel a bit sad for him as he constantly says ‘I’m yesterdays man’ - anyone got an attractive ( he still likes good looking women) homely , good cook, 75 years , nicely dressed, solvent mum I could hook him up with - lol!!! I think ironically this would cheer him up no end - he lives in a funky town too , very nice bungalow

You are right and at least I know I am not overreacting in how I feel about it. @BlueLegume it made you ill and I can feel how already it sucked energy out of me last night and this morning here I am on MN instead of enjoying my first weekend off in months! It consumes me the comments she dropps into conversations and yes I pretend I do not hear them and ignore it but they trigger me. @Billybagpuss insinuations is the right word to describe it, you are correct. It is all done in such immaculate way to the point I pretend I am thick and do not understand her. I actually considered working abroad where she is but even if I live there I would have to say it is a hotel or air bnb so I have the privacy and space as otherwise she would demand me attending her needs every weekend and me traveling between cities instead of relaxing.
I think for us daughters is the guilt that is the huge problem as we are conditioned young age that we need to be nice, submissive and look after others at the cost of our own life. You are right it is for her to organise and think about her garden, home etc. I said that in my PP years ago when I was getting engaged to my first husband I was told 'do not even think about us helping you with your children' - probably hugely impacted me not having kids and moving abroad decades ago. She was able to say that then (I am sure she doesnt remember) but can not see the effect it had on how things are today ie she has no family nearby.

IMO all deliberate & manipulative, designed to make you feel guilty.

You have to accept that nothing will ever be enough. Reading ‘ You are not the problem’ really helped me.

💐

@Crikeyalmighty if you feel sorry for him and your husband finds it depressing why not swap? You talk to him, cheer him up, give him a female energy, female perspective and outlook on current topics. It may awaken him and redirect his focus plus it will give your DH some respite.
His life is HIS choice none of it gets imposed on them.

@frenchpharmacy I’m glad you’ve found solidarity here and it is true that we are conditioned (both by parents and by society) from birth to always feel we should sacrifice ourselves - and want to do do. So as well as the criticism and behaviour of your mum, you feel deep down like you’re doing daughtering wrong. Even though she told you she was opting out herself of grandmothering.

We can also confirm that being closer will not make anything better for you or be enough for her. Forgive yourself for keeping going back for more - and you can reduce or stop that if it is consuming you. I try to just do what I want to and not what I feel I should - and bingo during or distraction afterwards helps. Keep talking to us here too.

My FIL used to tell my husband that he should have had a daughter instead of all boys because then someone would move in and look after him and MIL, DH just used to say too late for that. And he used to go on about how his brother's children take his brother on days out, except DH had given up trying to take him out because he never wanted to leave housebound MIL for even half an hour with someone staying with her. DH just used to tell him it was his choice not to have outings.
He also used to moan about how hard it was to look after MIL and how he needed a break but rejected funded respite offers. Because family should be moving in and sleeping on a chair to enable him to have a break (except he'd still interfere).
You just have to learn to shrug it off

this is powerful @FiniteSagacity 'do what I want not what i feel i should' brilliant! thank yoy x