mid 80s difficult dm - I tried everything

[frenchpharmacy]

I wrote here few times before and got valuable responses. I read recommended books, I am in therapy, I practice FOG, grey rock and JADE. I set firm boundaries by not calling everyday but only 2x a week now. Just when I had my therapy session yesterday and I cried to the point even my therapist was moved, I received a call today from my DM reprimending me for not calling her. The twist: we usually speak at around 8pm, she did not call at 8pm, no no no, she waited till 10.30pm called and reprimanded me. No matter what I do, how hard I try to set boundaries, protect myself, she has the power. I had to explain myself (that was expected) and I said I will call tomorrow eveing but now I am already stressed 24h ahead. Over 25y ago I moved out from what was a home full of rigour, I moved abroad to distance myself but here we are all these years later still controlled. Two failed marraiges, no children, just trying to keep my head above water.

So sorry, you anguish is very clear. All I can suggest is that you have a firm agreement and stick to it. Block everything else. X

I know this might sound a little unusual, but have you thought of having some kind of ritual after dealing with your mother, especially when she is difficult or unpleasant? It would be unique to you. A way of releasing or dispelling it away from you. Help keep your strength up, as well as continuing your boundaries

OP, if she called at 10.30, why did you not simply ignore the phone? It will cut off after a few rings. She can’t MAKE you pick up the phone. And if you felt you had to pick it up, rather than letting her tell you off, just say DM, it’s a bit late for a call: I’ll speak tomorrow, goodbye, and put the phone down. She only has “the power” because you let her have it. You said you’d call the next day, so call but keep it brief, and if she starts belittling you or being unpleasant, just say, DM, I’m sorry but I’m not going to put up with this: goodbye. If she calls back, ignore. And if she reprimands you for not calling, tell her that if she’s going to be unpleasant, you won’t call at all. Simply because she expects something doesn’t mean you have to do it. Do you have any siblings to share the burden with, or close friends you can talk to? I know you’re struggling, OP, and I feel for you, but you don’t need to be stressed about calling your DM. You have the whip hand - if she starts going on about your shortcomings, tell her you’re not putting up with it, then bring the phone call to an immediate end. She’ll soon get the message.

Give her a specific ring tone and only answer when you are free and want to speak to her. Otherwise let it go to voicemail. Don’t call her every week. Tell her you’re ‘busy’. You set the agenda and if she starts being unpleasant tell her you have an appointment, someone’s come to the door, your friend is arriving soon, you’re off out.

It sounds like you are emotionally exhausted while trying to deal with an ongoing emotionally draining situation.
Can you up the self care & any distancing rituals/ mantras ( @Prettystarry ) that you can add in to contact.
Find ways to minimise how much of your thinking time she takes. Have replacement thoughts to hand to interrupt. Detox her from your mind & body.
Stutz on Netflix worth a watch. His maze theory.

You phone her when you want to and the rest of the time at your phone to automatically send the calls from her number to voicemail. Or do what I’ve done and block her calls. It saves the stress of answering the phone and not knowing what mood she will be in that day. Even seeing her number come up sends my blood pressure up.

take control.

You deal with her like a toddler

Praise the good, ignore the bad.

So what if she told you off? You don’t have to let her take up brain space.

Like PP ignore the call. end the call, I wouldn’t call at set times, just when you think about it, you have control over that.

Switch to text - or send voice notes.

What compels you to keep calling?!

I think treating her like a toddler is excellent advice. Or someone with severe mental health issues. I don’t believe my mother is in control of her behaviour. She’s never been pleasant to me but the filter has gone and she just blurts out rude and hurtful comments. Her emotions are all over the place. Some days she’s vulnerable and others she’s rude and cutting. She forgets what’s she’s said as soon as it’s out of her mouth ( if it’s hurtful), denies accountability and blames me . I’ve realised she’s half senile but also mentally ill. Don’t treat her like a rational person and prioritise your own wellbeing.

Don’t beat yourself up for finding it hard. She’s groomed you for a lifetime to operate according to her needs not your own. You’ve done really well to identify it and put measures in. Don’t be surprised if it takes a while- you are reversing a lifetime’s training. There will be occasional slip ups!

@Prettystarry could you elaborate please? I need this- DM’s shenanigans haunt us as a family. We end up rehashing her appalling behaviour after each incident and need to learn how to switch away out of that place back to the more cheerful world we have made for ourselves!
Any suggestions?

Yet again a list of helpful tips thank you. Just a bit of clarification about the 'call'. It is always a landline call. My DM refused to learn sending text messages or to have a computer and an email so her way to communicate is landline. In pandemic I felt very sorry for her so we used to have a call daily. She lives abroad and her calls to UK are free, so often I would 'send a tinkle' and she would call. After 5 years a lot has changed and that includes her mood swings. She became more and more unpleasant and critical of everything and everyone and started pressurising me to come and live with her. She knows I have relationship difficulties with longterm DP so she wanted me to just leave and go live with her. This would absolutely destroy me as that is what I run away from abroad decades ago. The rigid home rules, discipline, lack of privacy. I realised DM (as in her mid 80s now) wants me there as her daily crutch but this would mean I would lose my life, my independency. Every call I hear how somebody elses daughter did xyz for the elderly parent, how they have the support, how this how that and it is always a dig at me. She doesnt see the connection between the fact that a rigid upbringing pushed me away (literally!). She tells me how sad it is I never experienced motherhood but does not link that fact to a day I announced (mid20s) with my then BF who became my first husband, that we wanted to start a family and get married. I got told off for my plans and that my parents are not going to help with grandchildren. The message was very clear so we got married and moved abroad. Obviously marriage did not survive and only now in therapy I realise I was partly scared of having children due to lack of help and nertwork. Today we are facing a situation there is no on hand assistance for elderly, there is distance, there is no Christmas with grandchildren, all the picture perfect is not here. This is the result. I suffered in silence for years but with help of therapy it all surfaced and here we are.

Also remember that your behavioural changes are for your benefit, and you are changing yourself not her. Don’t expect her to learn to be different because you are handling her differently.

She’ll carry on as she is.

Have you tried pushing back on any of these subjects? Gently perhaps, but not letting her narrative stand?

‘Yes mum, I always wanted dc but you went on about what a burden it was, how I’d never cope and it put me off!’

Always agree even when you are contradicting her. Start with yes then explain actually, no.

‘Yes mum, I’m really busy so won’t ring now until Friday.’

Yes means you hear what she wants and understand her needs, and you are sticking to your guns.

‘No’ and ‘but’ are triggers she listens out for and is primed to explode about.

the 'yes', 'no', 'but' is a great tip thank you. I tried it not knowing I did in the past but must remember to apply regularly.

What upsets me is that I miss a DM I did not have and it literally breaks my heart daily. I have lived for decades with the 'could she not just ...(be softer, be this be that). The loss of not having a softer, gentler DM is upsetting. I understand it is a IIWW generation and they had to deal with a lot of trauma, and that back then none was thinking about emotions let alone talk about them but why on earth do we need to constantly excuse the bad behaviour only because someone is elderly? Through therapy I notice how DM infantilises me, bringing up stories from my teens, being irritated when I do not remember. But she does not know any of my uni friends or work colleagues as of course I was not at home anymore. When I visit her she sets lunch time at 4pm (I eat at 1pm) and if I want to meet old friend for lunch I can't. She actually says 'you came over to visit me and I want you to have lunch with me as I eat on my own all year around'. If I push back she blows up.

@frenchpharmacy couldn’t read your posts and walk on by. Absolutely feel for you. Far too many of us in this situation. I have distanced myself over the past 6 months and whilst I do feel better there are wobbles of guilt. However when they surface I remind myself of something you mention in your final post - you are missing a mother you never had.

Same with mine - if I pushed back she blew up - as does one of my siblings who seems to have a very rose tinted memory of life with our mother.

Keep us updated-we have all the resources you mentioned in the first post - sadly parents like our lack any internal resources so do not understand why they cannot have what they want.

@BlueLegume hi, I remember you from my other posts. yes very valid point about resources. I often think about what we (children) do - we read all the books, we pay for therapy, we spend hours on mumsnet within a community where we find our voice, we talk, we share, we process all the emotions, we suffer, we heal and the list is endless of what we do to cope but why is it that our parents do nothing? Our DMs are adamant that their age and motherhood gives them kudos and rights for bad behaviour. They do not recognise their behaviour as bad or inapropriate. Most importantly they do not reflect. Why do we do all this hard work whilst they can not just pause for a moment and think 'oh perhaps I was harsh' 'Perhaps I am ought to apologise to my daughter' 'perhaps she is tired' 'perhaps she needs space' NO! it is always about them. Never about us. Their time, their loneliness, their illness, their problems, their neighbours, their whatever there is there on thet day. I will be setting a boundary tonight again saying our calls now will go down to one day a week as I am working late (which is true I will be finishing later up until new year). This will also indicate I am not coming for Christmas. I was struggling with work and only this month my contract went up to more hours. This doesnt mean full time but it is better than it used to be. I got a lot of overtime until January which gives me a bit more breathing space. It is still low salary so I am looking for more work but I know for a fact it will cause friction with DM.

@frenchpharmacy glad you have found a way to navigate. Whilst I was sorting out nursing care for my father, which is not an easy thing to do when he had such high nursing needs, the paperwork and admin alone took me ages then dashing off to look after one of my adult children who had a sudden serious health issue and lived alone over 300 miles away so rather than take my mothers food round for her myself I organised a food delivery from a supermarket-which she at first refused to take but then did but then threw it all away. One sibling told me that I should not have organised the food delivery and I should have made sure I took the food myself - I am retired they are not so my time is deemed less valuable! Anyway when I explained that it seemed a sensible solution under the circumstances They told me - and this is not a joke…..’that’s your problem BlueLegume, you are always looking for solutions’.

Yes, I am - no one has yet explained why I was the problem!!

Keep being strong - don’t intend to hijack your thread BTW……just highlighting what people like us have to deal with before the ‘but they are your parents…..‘comments appear, which happily is rare on here. Stick to your guns.

The problem of always looking for solutions! Love it.

My problem, apparently, is that I look for the good. Apparently I should assume people are awful rather than thinking they’ve made a mistake, and should be angry rather than disappointed or worried.

One of the problems with being raised as we were, rather totalitarian, is that we see the problem in black and white as well.

You could go out for lunch with your friend and then eat again at 4pm with your mum. Choose something lighter while you are out, and don’t eat much with your mum.

Just because she can’t compromise doesn’t mean things have to be done her way.

Mine doesn’t actually like me going out at all when I’m staying with her. It’s made it hard to stay in touch with old friends and other family members. She needs me present at all times, talks at me while I’m in the loo, likes me to watch her try on clothes… it’s painful. I’m delighted when she has something on and goes to it, releasing me to an hour’s silence or a catch up with someone else.

I’m not criticising, by the way, just pointing out an option that might work. We have blind spots about our own terrorist parent. They take us hostage and we have to find ways to survive round the edges, it feels like.

Ca you try sharing the ‘really good news’ about your increased hours? Talk at some length about the relief of an increase in income, how it helps you feel less anxious about the future, that it will be hard work but worth it, and you’ll be a bit busier and will still be able to ring every week, maybe on a Friday would work best and you’re so relieved and so pleased to have the opportunity…

Slip the news in the middle of a really positive sentence. She may feel socially obliged to go along with the idea it’s a good thing!

@PrizedPickledPopcorn totalitarian hahaha made me chuckle but it is true. Great way to describe it. I tried the eat lighter with a friend and then again with her once and it went down badly, the point was she actually did not want me to go out. Like you she talks to me whilst im in the loo, I need to watch her try clothes and admire her, 'but do you really mean it i look nice, because you dont sound like it' - it is tiring. Hostile is the word! I have no siblings so no one to share this with. I already mentioned about how good I have this work, specially that I was freelance for years and now jsut need to get anything coming in. DM was not enthusiastic, she actually said the other week 'oh you are not doing anything you could come over and sit with me, we have important conversations to have' - it is her banging on about wanting to move and me finding her a new place, packing her and moving her whilst she orders me around. All this with me not working, living under her roof and being controlled. Erm NO. I told her at the time - it is not that I am not doing anything - my job is looking for a job and I need to accept anything. I can literally sense in every conversation how focused she is on controlling me and by that I mean forcing me to move countries and be her servant.

When you say it's a landline call is she calling your landline or your mobile from her landline. Because if it's your mobile the do not disturb function is your friend.

If it’s a mobile use the Do Not Disturb function on the phone. You can set it to allow certain numbers through eg a work number or your partner.

If it’s a landline call just unplug it at the wall, or disconnect from the base. Ours has an on/off switch so can be turned off if necessary.

I can relate to so much of this. I will say, although, be thankful she only rings. I remember mine berating me that her ‘little man’ (on MSN Messenger) was sad he’d not had a message recently. The fact I spoke nearly every day at the time, and emailed, and sent messages on another app wasn’t enough. And bonus guilt for making a bot unhappy as well as her!!!

Mine put me off relationships. She moaned when I was a teen that I’d soon have a relationship with someone, and wasn’t impressed when I got a boyfriend. She mocked me when he spoke of marriage, and wasn’t at all sympathetic when we split up. I sought safety with an older man which she didn’t like, but decided there was nothing between us. When another bloke started a campaign of assault against me (minor-ish, and I didn’t feel I could complain) she blamed me, turned it into a joke and pushed me once into a situation where I was alone with him. She was only happy for me to socialise with people she approved of (ie those who couldn’t see through her) and wasn’t quite keen for me to lose my virginity to someone of her choosing. When I was in my mid 20s (and long since moved far, far away) she found the perfect house for us to move into together (which had an annex for me) but laughingly agreed that of course I’d never be allowed time alone in my part of the house.

Shed ring at work, always with an excuse but would then try to segue into a chat, despite knowing I was at work and thus meant to be working.

I learnt to lie convincingly. ‘Luckily’ mobile reception was poor where I lived and I had no landline, so calls would often be ‘missed. Few holidays meant little time with her. Emails could be ignored until I had the strength to deal with her. Luckily she’s now in a home with an awful switchboard so it’s hard for me to get through.

I know I sound awful but sometimes you have to take care of yourself. And now I have a child I need to protect which gives me an added incentive.

How did today’s call go?

Hiya @PrizedPickledPopcorn I can’t really think of a specific example or elaborate - it’s such a personal thing. But I was thinking of things like prayers, self-affirmations, mantras, meditation, rituals, anything you want, whether traditional or something you create personally yourself.

I blocked her number on the landline.

In the early days of the Internet, before broadband, when my husband and I built our first computer, you could not use the phone if you were on the computer. My mother would rant because she got a, according to her, constant engaged tone. She hated my husband and the Internet. She only ever rang to moan, or laugh at someone else's misfortune.

I was over 50 when I eventually took away my mother's control. She wanted me to buy a business with her (with living accommodation)..... her latest attempt to split us up. She rang to sulk over some perceived grievance. Yes! She could sulk on the phone! I had just had enough. I simply calmly told her to ring only when she was prepared to be pleasant and put the phone down. She did ring back, over a week later.... and was pleasant. All through our lives, she had manipulated my sisters and I. Divide and rule had always been her mantra. It must have really upset her, towards the end of her life, when she was ill, that we sisters somehow actually got together and made a pact to not listen to her lies, not let her manipulate us, and to talk to each other. We actually had happy family gatherings afterwards.

White lies too. Mine knows that I have limited annual leave and little flexibility with working.

She has no idea it’s possible to buy extra annual leave and I’ve done this every year!

@UniversityofWarwick the call went as expected and it is only me with my toolbox from therapy that I was able to cope. It all started with the tone of voice 'well so?? do you not have a need to talk to me? because I have' I explained I get home at 7pm which is her 8pm after an hour drive on a motorway, and then by the time I get some food and relax etc it is late I am tired etc. 'well you can at least call for a moment just to let me know you are ok, a lot can happen in 5 days if we do not speak to each other' I told her equally she can call as well. She paused. It was her being taken aback. She did not expect that answer. Then she goes on about how she doesnt want to control me etc. I am thinking but you are. This is controlling. I am nearly 50 and this is control, I am running away from it all my life. I am just not who she wanted me to be, the daughter others have and she can not cope that I am an independent human being with my own needs wants and desires and my own brain. To everything that is going on in my life atm I have to now add managing her and her anxieties because all she does is being bored and seeking attention. I am in equally controlling and toxic relationship with an older man and atm can not get out. In therapy we realised (therapist and I) that the reason I am now stuck between toxic partner and mother is because that is the only model I know from my childhood. Toxic control. This is a setting in which I have been operating all my life. Anything different fails. I do feel I am bewteen them two (partner /mother) and as if there is no way out. The good thing is I recognise there is a problem but due to finances, lack of proper employment, lack of my own home I feel trapped. I thought of looking for a job in my country of origin and moving there to rebuild my career before I turn 50 but my plan is to move to a different city than to where my mother lives to give myself space or even not tell her that I moved. Another plan is to say in the future we do not have a landline anymore to reduce the call pressure. Problem is DP wants to move abroad with me and be between two countries. We had so many conversations that what we have is not a relationship (we have not been intimate for years, separate bedrooms and I feel I am just an arm candy and future free carer for him). He doesnt listen to what I am saying about my life, my plans. I always wanted family and commitment. I divorced to marry him as that is what he promised me. I have been waiting a decade and I know it will not happen as it would affect inheritance for his DC. I feel betrayed, manipulated and disconnected. Him and my DM are the same they explode every time they can nto get their way. He has what he wants. I do not. It is all very imbalanced and none of my needs are met. Very selfish. I am stuck.