Should what they NEED trump what they WANT?

[BlueLegume]

Just that really. I have had several threads on Elderly Parents and they have quite frankly kept me sane over several years of dealing with difficult aging parents.

Recently I have taken a huge step back but have really struggled reflecting on just how difficult my parents have always been, not just in old age. Critical, judgemental, unreasonably high standards that mere mortals like me would never meet.

Got me to thinking about wider issues and one in particular being that over many years when my parents have come to me with moans about life and I have come up with suggestions their stock response is ‘we don’t want that’ or ‘that won’t work for us’. The latter being a 15 year discussion about installing a downstairs loo/shower room - they had/have room for it.

Do some people just not see what they NEED trumps what they WANT?

We downsized earlier than we might have needed to because we wanted to enjoy our 60s in a more suitable space and knew it would be a hassle. It was but we were still capable of sorting everything out. Not sure 10 years later we would have managed and I didn’t want to have my adult kids lives disrupted by us needing their assistance.

Anyway as adults I do think there comes a time where what you need overrides what you want.

As ever interested in MN views as I am open to discussion.

As long as they have capacity, you have to respect their wishes/wants but at the same time if you disagree with their decisions, you don’t have to tie yourself in knots trying to help them see those poor decisions through.

It all depends on the nature of your relationship too. If your parents have always been difficult then it’s unlikely to change as they get older. I’ve always had a good relationship with my parents (now just my dad since my mum died). He’s quite sensible and doesn’t want to be a ‘burden’ so for the past year I’ve been gently nudging him toward sheltered accommodation. At first he wasn’t sure and wanted time to consider all his options but then he began to realise that being in sheltered would reduce his bills significantly and give him an added layer of security (24 hour warden). We’re now actively looking. It will be hard for him to give up the family home but he’s realised it’s even harder to pay people to maintain the garden, the cleaning and to keep the house properly warm in the winter. Once he viewed a lovely sheltered bungalow, he ‘saw the light’ and could see the benefits versus living in a bigger house with stairs and draughty bedrooms.

If your parents are normally reasonable people, these conversations are easier. If they’ve always been difficult then there might come a point where you continue to oversee their care but stop running yourself into the ground ‘enabling’ them to live in an environment which isn’t suited for their needs. It’s a tricky one!

@dogcatkitten thank you for the suggestions sadly we are way way down the line where our mother actually refused to allow food deliveries - she literally turned them away. She just refuses to engage but at the same time does nothing to help herself.

Thanks for the advice it is always welcome as I still hold a glimmer of hope that someone will come up with something we haven’t tried.

Glad to see you are still about @BlueLegume
I have read all your threads
You are such a caring person.
I hope one day to read on here you finally manage to escape the FOG.

@rickyrickygrimes my H is like that - his view is that he will cross that bridge when it’s a real need rather than a future proofing 15 years in advance and pay for help to move etc - with him it’s all about location and he likes lively and facilities and ability to get buses and taxis will anyway - so it will be about ‘home’ rather than location

I think for things you are doing and providing, then working to their needs and not wants is fine.

I am my MIL default carer. Last week she had a fall and couldn’t get around ie to toilet etc without help. I have a job I can do from anywhere so I worked from hers for 3 days. I told her I couldn’t be there on Saturday as had plans so we need to work on her being more mobile (she has just pulled a muscle in leg). I also had to pretend I needed to be in the office on Monday just to break that habit of me being there as she wants me there all day at her beck and call but no longer NEEDS me there. She did make a comment to my DH about me being around for something on Thursday or Friday and how it’s ok as ‘springtome works here now’ 😂 he made it clear I don’t and was only there last week as she needed help.

We are still going each night to sort out food and leaving her with food for breakfast and lunch the next day but I hope that the limited offerings will mean she will try and get up and about to make her own food 😂

@springtome I do see how this happens. This was me a couple of years ago thinking that if I did x,y,z then she would improve and try to help herself abit - she is capable. Instead she literally became purposefully incapable of doing anything but threw her all into criticising absolutely everything anyone did to help. How I describe my mother is that she has learned to be helpless and is addicted to attention, be that good, bad or indifferent.

I'm afraid that sometimes what they need must trump what they want. When it comes to safety matters for example. And any behaviour or practices that seriously impact others. Of course how you judge this is tricky; when your parents have been difficult for a long time it might become quite exhausting. If compassion fatigue has already set in, it's no wonder that your asking these questions. My love and best to you.

Then let her live with the consequences

PS I've been on Mumsnet so long that I had to triple read the title of this thread because I couldn't work out what an elderly parents thread had to do with the president of the United States...

It’s all very well letting them do what they want - if it doesn’t mean family run ragged trying to support them.

Once dementia is involved, of course, there will usually come a point where their needs absolutely have to trump their wants - they are no longer capable of understanding that they can’t manage their own cooking/shopping/washing any more, let alone anything like finances.

But those who still have capacity refusing paid help that they could well afford, because ‘my daughter will do it’ (nearly always a daughter, isn’t it?) is just IMO rather too common self-centredness

Poor old dh had nightmares with an elderly childless aunt, who found excuses to turn away all the help he’d arranged for her (which she could well afford) - she wanted him dancing attendance - and we lived a 2 hour drive away!

@GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER very familiar tale. I do think in my mother’s case she has never really had any hobbies or friends, she systematically alienated every neighbour and family as no one was ever ‘good enough’ in her opinion. What then happened was when my father was admitted into nursing care she had no one to control - she very much controlled him. Then her world was exposed for what it was - empty. So she then decided to play games of manipulation with us. @Crucible I like the term compassion fatigue. One of my siblings considers me to be ‘unbelievable’ because I have run out of steam so I will use that phrase then next time he berates me.

Absolutely, I read @rickyrickygrimes ' post as supportive of you, not criticising! We get into a pattern of focusing on their needs before (or totally instead of) our own - you have the right to take care of yourself first.

And btw, I identify with the 'twinkly Waitrose man' thing... my brother has a mate in his early 50s, and my own 82 year old NarcMother thinks he's her 'special friend' and can't wait for him to admit it and leave his wife... 🤦‍♀️

I guess part of my issue is that throughout life I have tried to ensure each new ‘chapter’ is something I can manage.

it’s interesting that you picked this out. Are you a generally anxious person? My SIL and my sister both have GAD and I notice that the way they respond to our ageing parents is very different to mine. They both put a lot of energy into trying to control situations because they are anxious about what might ‘go wrong’ if they don’t, or they spiral, catastrophising and worrying about possible dire outcomes. So it makes them quite vulnerable to needy / demanding parents, unable to step back and say ‘on your own head be it’ or some such when they make daft decisions. My SIL in particular finds it incredibly hard to step away from FILs requests, even when it’s affecting her own life, because she can’t handle the anxiety that something bad might happen and it’s her fault.

Do you think you could stop seeing your parents as a situation to ‘manage’ and just step away?

@rickyrickygrimes yes I am an anxious person around my parents especially-and always have been. I have taken huge steps over the past few months to stop seeing them as a situation to ‘manage’. Whilst it has brought me some peace of mind that I didn’t cause the mess so I cannot ‘fix’ it so to speak I think I am struggling to deal with the reflections I have of just never quite measuring up to their expectations of me. Ridiculous I know as a grown woman.

I have spent years pandering and now I have stopped I suppose I need to learn to deal with the emotions and feelings that brings. Thanks to all I really appreciate the time people take on these threads to help me unscramble things.

@BlueLegume I do agree with @rickyrickygrimes - you have let your mother live rent free in your head for far too long without clearing space for your own wants/needs- you sound such a very lovely caring person and she really isn’t - you know that expression on aircraft ‘put on your own mask before others’ - I think you need to take a step back - and give less of a shit I’m afraid or you will be the one needing care - !! If she had been a nicer mum and gave a shit about your wants, needs and health then she wouldn’t be laying all this on you -

@Crikeyalmighty the living rent free really resonates. My natural instinct is to try and help people generally and I can see I try TOO hard at times.

I have stepped right back over the past few months I guess I need to adapt and live with how that feels.

I still hold a glimmer of hope that someone will come up with something we haven’t tried.

Such as stepping away? Lots of people have come up with that. Have to you tried it? Properly?

The world is full of people who let their wants trump their needs - that's why we have an economy bouncing from debt crisis to debt crisis and individual households doing the same, a majority of the population with insufficient pension provision, a climate crisis, wars...

You can't make your parents to act differently. But you can react differently.

What about your wants and needs? Are you letting your want to save/control your parents override your need to preserve your own health and sanity?

Crosspost on the stepping away. Good. Keep it up

@BlueLegume I do sympathise as im like that too - what really rang home for me involved a friend - she split with her live in partner, single mum, lost some work contracts- I was busily trying to sort a break out ( abroad) in school holidays and I was going to pay as thought she might need the break and be strapped for cash - she seemed keen , then never followed up and has been on multiple breaks since with family or own and I realised she mattered to me an awful lot more than I mattered to her- she’s actually a lovely friend, but I was busy trying to help when it clearly was fine without my help - so like you im stepping back a bit

I think a lot of people can identify with your feelings. One thing toxic parents do is make us feel 'responsible' for their feelings and happiness, even when we're children - having to be 'good enough' to make them happy, being to blame if they're in a bad mood, etc. And it is a hard pattern to break out of.

And I think a lot of people come to this realisation in later life when the parents become more 'child-like' but still try to exert parent-level control. It's psychologically gruelling as well as physically difficult!

Lots of good advice here and on the Stately Homes thread, just want to send you solidarity! 🤗

Thanks everyone. I have all the theories and tools from so much advice so I need to hold firm when I have a wobble! Coming on here always helps. Bit like going to an AA/NA meeting helping me not fall off the wagon of getting in touch with her. I am standing firm and not doing that. 3 months ago I would have caved in, but not now. I need to focus on dealing with how it makes me feel and adapt accordingly. Off to do something productive for me now - cue my brother telling me how selfish I am 🙄

Very much agree with this.

Even needs Vs wants are not clear cut. My DM absolutely will not accept many things I think she needs. I can accept that.

@BlueLegume and screw him too!!

The title of this could be tweaked “Should what they want trump what I want?”
The answer should always be negative. As women we have been conditioned to put others first, but actually we need to earn a living, feed and spend time with our own DCs and live our own lives.

My increasingly common self motto is that my parents independence cannot come at the cost of my own. Also they have had the opportunity to live full and rich lives, I also deserve that ongoing opportunity. I won’t abandon them, but I refuse to sacrifice myself for them.

Ah. The sibling who has been quite content to watch while you run ragged - yes? Theyre a familiar beast. Just keep suggesting he steps in and does it himself.....