School children visiting nursing home - residents screaming!

[Albless]

My DF is in a nursing home - and some of the other residents scream and cry out. I can hear this when visiting my DF, and when windows are open it is very clearly audible from outside the building. I do find it distressing - and am also quite distressed by the reality that you just have to ignore it as the people who scream can't easily be comforted or settled as their dementia is so severe. Sadly, this is the difficult reality for residents, staff and visitors.

However, the nursing home hosts visits from local school children - primary school age. They tend to spend time with the residents are more able - frail rather than demented, and are usually downstairs where those residents are mostly located. My DF is upstairs and it really can be a very challenging environment at times with disturbed mobile, or would-be mobile, residents and those who scream and shout.

I know that there can be benefits for children and older people to spend time together, but after a recent visit by local children, I can't help thinking that a nursing home which cares for those who scream, shout and behave in unpredictable ways is not a suitable environment for such visits. Maybe a residential home or sheltered accommodation for those who are frail but otherwise competent, and capable of behaving appropriately would be a better place to visit.

What do you think? My DM thinks it's ok - but she's very deaf and very often doesn't hear the screaming. She didn't realise until I mentioned it that the screams and shouts can be heard from outside the building. The most recent visit from the children had them outside in the garden with some of the more able residents, so they would have been able to hear sounds of distress from open windows.

I don't know whether to mention it to the nursing home, or to the local education authority. Maybe the latter would be better as they have a duty of care and must have to complete a risk assessment before taking the children on a visit there.

Bloody hell! Edited to add - I have explained the set up in the first post and since.

The residents who scream etc are mostly on the upper floor - although some also are downstairs. When room windows are open, which they very often are as the nursing home is hot and stuffy, the screams can be heard from outside the building. On their most recent visit, the children were in the garden so could have heard the screaming!

Agree.

I agree OP. There is no actual reason for it and it would cause unnecessary distress in some children. Hearing adults screaming is daunting enough for adults (who don’t work in that type of environment) so to toddlers and young children, it would be frightening. I worked in a nursing home when I was 19 and there was a lot of shouting/screaming and swearing from the patients

The concept is nice, but I personally find inappropriate for young children as they aren’t old enough to understand. Different a residential home where it routinely wouldn’t happen.

Reductio ad absurdum there.

Nobody is suggesting any of that, and it's a very big leap from being exposed to elderly dementia patients occasionally screaming or shouting all the way to rape trials, A&E on a Saturday night, etc.

My father in law had dementia and was so noisy at night they had to change his room several times in the three years he was there because other residents were disturbed. This was mainly as he would sleep all day and be awake at night when obviously they were all sleeping.
one day late evening his screaming was so bad someone in a local house nearby called the Police thinking that someone was being hurt. the Police visited and had to see my fil to make sure he was safe and not being hurt.
it was very frightening for us and I would think terrifying for a child. though they should know about these things eventually I do not think being young they should be subjected to it

These parents would not give consent for their children to go on these visits then.
I do not think it's a school's responsibility to be teaching our children about these upsetting facts of life.
Many schools don't allow children to bring in football stickers because of the distress it causes when a child swaps a sticker and then changes their mind. Many don't have competitive sports days because it's too hard for some children. I don't know why they would then think it's OK to trundle them down to a nursing home to experience mentally unwell adults in distress.

Reading this again. You say "We don't keep them locked up so ..."

Well, actually, these residents are locked up, pretty much. They're not allowed out on their own, there are key codes for the doors and staff have to let visitors in and out.

My DD would be very upset and distressed, I’d have to pull her out of any visits. I don’t know any school that does this type of thing.

I agree with this.

I took my DC to a community zone that caters for children of all ages with different extracurricular activities. I took him for a look around before we got membership and there was a group of older children (16/17/18ish) that we’re having a session upstairs. One of the teenage girls sounded like she was in distress as she was screaming out constantly and it was piercing. My DC looked at me and I looked at the woman showing us around and she explained that the local special school had their children for a session. I reassured my DC who looked quite scared. To add my DC has SEN but it was was a piercing scream and in some ways it was made worse because we couldn’t see her, see that she was ok etc….

Well, you've just demonstrated that you have no understanding of what I'm talking about.

This is not "occasional screaming or shouting". There are residents who scream and shout constantly. Scream and shout out all the time! Endlessly. And cannot be comforted or consoled or distracted.

Children playing happy games in the sunshine while in the background they hear someone screaming, on and on and on. Or maybe they spend an hour listening to someone repeatedly shouting, "Help me! Help me! Help me! Help me!..."

@Albless totally agree op, I don’t think people are understanding how it can be on a dementia unit, they are seeing it as a “ normal “ experience that children should be exposed to…many adults find it distressing and as you said, hearing someone in distress and being unable to do anything to relieve the distress is emotionally very hard as an adult, never mind as a child who may struggle to comprehend the situation . In hospice we had children at the bedside of their dying parents, which was totally appropriate, context and support are everything . Children are from all different backgrounds and have different levels of emotional understanding at different ages, primary school is often an age where children start to understand the finality of death and can often become scared or anxious hence why it has to be handled with understanding. I am totally supportive of care home visits where there is consideration of both the needs of residents and children.

I work with the elderly including lots of professional experience with dementia. I think it’s wonderful to have children visit care homes including those you are describing. Providing it is handled correctly. Children are much more resilient than adults often give them credit for, as long as the adults/teachers and caregivers prepare the children etc don’t see any harm, I only see benefits for both the children and the residents.

How do you see children benefiting from hearing screaming and shouting for help?

What benefit is there to the residents from being overheard in their distress by small children?

I’m a big fan of teaching children to be resilient, I’m very open about death and illness, my own children have had to deal with a parent suffering from a life threatening illness and collapsing and having paramedics in the house on more than one occasion. I still think it is wrong to expose a primary aged child on a school visit to the distressed shouts screams and sometimes violent sounding behaviour of someone with dementia who cannot be consoled, As other people have explained constant shouts of help me are very common as is swearing.

As the daughter of a dementia patient in that home the OP has every right to say I don’t want small children to hear my DF in that state. I used to take my children to visit my parent when they were in a care home but I would check how they were before I brought them in and obviously as a parent I was able to explain what was happening and talk about it afterwards.

Our primary school take about 8 kids to each of the local care homes once a month. These kids volunteer to go and permission is given by their parents. The children are briefed before their first visit and can opt out at any time. The elderly folk don’t have to be in the room when the school visits.

These care homes give overwhelmingly positive feedback for the visits - children bring so much joy to the elderly and they really look forward to it.

Personally I think it’s a useful social event from both sides, it’s voluntary all round, and brings far more happiness than negativity.

I remember my Dad taken me to see my great grab when I was a young child and she was bedridden with a lot of facial hair, I thought she was absolutely terrifying. I've been a nurse for 30 years now though so it didn't scar me for life. I visit some lovely care homes and they have dolls and pushchairs for some of their dementia patients and they are so attentive to the babies. So very sad to see.

When my Grandmother was in a nursing home (dementia) myself amd my children visited regularly. I never gave it a second though. People get old, frail, have dementia etc, that's part of life. My children were never upset if a resident was loud.

The last 2 posts demonstrate very well why children should be with parents or other close family when visiting people with dementia. Not school teachers.
Some children are not bothered, take it all in their stride, while others are scared and would need the situation explained to them by someone who knows the child best.

Personally I think it’s a useful social event from both sides, it’s voluntary all round, and brings far more happiness than negativity.

A social event? Voluntary? Not for dementia patients.
Given the choice my rather grumpy FIL would much rather be left in peace than have such a social event imposed upon him.

You and your children must have nerves of steel, or a compassion by-pass.

I'm an adult and I find it upsetting to hear people screaming and calling out in agitation and distress. Over time visiting the home I've had to harden myself to it, and that in itself is upsetting - but I've come to realise that there is nothing I can do to help alleviate those residents' suffering. And they are suffering.

I'm not convinced that this is a good idea, as PP have said it's a myth that you build resilience or teach empathy by putting children in situations that they aren't equipped to deal with.

I'm all for an individual child being taken to see a family member in this situation or in hospital or to a funeral when the decision is made by someone who knows them very well and is there to support them. This sort of thing with groups of kids being brought by people that don't know them so well individually is too clunky.

How dare you imply we have a compassion by pass. We are a very kind and compassionate family, hence our frequent visits to my Grandmother. As I said previously, that's life, people get old, agitated, get diagnosed with illness. I would also add that we are not from the UK so how we treat our elderly and death is completed different. Its all a life cycle that we will all experience.

Are you that sensitive in general?

But you have suddenly changed the thread. You asked about the children, now it is about what you want.

As the discussion opened up, another thought occurred to me - how I would feel in that situation. When you regularly, for years, visit a parent with late stage dementia you (speaking generally) often start to think about how you might feel should you end up in a similar situation. Generally speaking, I think most of the residents who are screaming are unaware of the children being there, but actually given the severity of the illness it is impossible to tell. But their personal dignity and right to privacy should be respected.

It’s part of life. They spend time with children at school with additional needs who may stim vocally or may become overwhelmed.
My grandad has Alzheimer’s for 13 years….he became too poorly to care for at home and had to move into EMI care, should me and my sibling not take our children into see him?
My mam is an only child and had no one to care for us when my Nanna was admitted to a mental health unit and she used to take us on a weekend to visit and as she got older and admitted to hospital a lot we used to see her on a dual care ward (mental health and medicine) where people had advanced dementia, constant wandering (I did get locked in a day room with a patient once as a young girl when I returned my chair to the room), ladies waiting for the bus wearing their work tabbards etc.

My now husband was 15 at the time visited my nanna alone on the dual care ward when she became unwell when we were on holiday. It made most of the patients day seeing him (as he is lovely) these were patients that’s could shout out and become distressed at times.

it’s certainly not pleasant. But unfortunately it’s life….thats how I became a nurse and at that point definitely knew I wanted to marry him.