School children visiting nursing home - residents screaming!

[Albless]

My DF is in a nursing home - and some of the other residents scream and cry out. I can hear this when visiting my DF, and when windows are open it is very clearly audible from outside the building. I do find it distressing - and am also quite distressed by the reality that you just have to ignore it as the people who scream can't easily be comforted or settled as their dementia is so severe. Sadly, this is the difficult reality for residents, staff and visitors.

However, the nursing home hosts visits from local school children - primary school age. They tend to spend time with the residents are more able - frail rather than demented, and are usually downstairs where those residents are mostly located. My DF is upstairs and it really can be a very challenging environment at times with disturbed mobile, or would-be mobile, residents and those who scream and shout.

I know that there can be benefits for children and older people to spend time together, but after a recent visit by local children, I can't help thinking that a nursing home which cares for those who scream, shout and behave in unpredictable ways is not a suitable environment for such visits. Maybe a residential home or sheltered accommodation for those who are frail but otherwise competent, and capable of behaving appropriately would be a better place to visit.

What do you think? My DM thinks it's ok - but she's very deaf and very often doesn't hear the screaming. She didn't realise until I mentioned it that the screams and shouts can be heard from outside the building. The most recent visit from the children had them outside in the garden with some of the more able residents, so they would have been able to hear sounds of distress from open windows.

I don't know whether to mention it to the nursing home, or to the local education authority. Maybe the latter would be better as they have a duty of care and must have to complete a risk assessment before taking the children on a visit there.

What you are describing isn't what OP is describing. I think most people agree that the sort of visit you host is beneficial for both parties.

Children are warned?

"Now sit down year 2. Today we are visiting a nursing home, where some of the elderly people are very unwell. Some will be shouting, many will try and talk to you, some might be showing behaviour that is confusing to you. Any questions?"

I really don't think it's under the schools remit to teach children about dementia patients.
Visiting a family member with your parents is entirely different.

I don't know whether to mention it to the nursing home, or to the local education authority. Maybe the latter would be better as they have a duty of care and must have to complete a risk assessment before taking the children on a visit there.

Do you even know whether the children were from a local authority school as opposed to an academy, free school or independent school? LAs don't do risk assessments for school visits anyway.

I’m worked in both hospice care and mental health & would disagree that exposing children to distressing environments without the support of their parent present , is likely to be beneficial and create resilience…we have certainly lost touch with the importance of children being around those who are very elderly, unwell or dying but since ever since “care in the community” policies, those with very challenging dementia behaviours have been moved out of the long stay E.M.I. wards and into nursing homes. I’m a health professional and I find it distressing to hear people screaming and crying, children can struggle to deal with situations if they don’t have a trusted adult to be there with them and explain what is going on. Care homes visits should be positive experiences and create good memories, I still have unpleasant memories of visiting a school for learning disabled children with my school as I found it scary and we weren’t given any support or explanations.

What about the rights of the people with dementia and their family? I'd be upset if I had visited my MIL and been told that she had been unsettled as a result of a school visit. The only risk assessment my MIL should have been part of was her own, her carers and her close visitors.

I agree OP, it’s just not appropriate. I know very well the type of sounds you are referring to - they are being made by individuals in deep distress and it’s traumatic to listen to as an adult. It’s not fair nor will it “build resilience” to expose small children to that on a school trip. I don’t care how much they have risk assessed it if I am ever in that state (which I could well be given my family history) there is no way I want primary children on a school outing being exposed to it.

And to whoever suggested dementia is like a second childhood , it is absolutely not and I find that an ignorant and offensive thing to say.

I’m 53. One year, as a child, we made a Thanksgiving ‘pilgrimage’ to the local nursing home (which was pretty much an Alzheimer’s Unit… lots of screaming). We had spent the previous lessons at Sunday school (which my mom taught) making Horns of Plenty (Google it) out of clay to present as gifts for the residents. They tried eating them. 😳
We didn’t return the next year.
It was wild, but of all the traumatic childhood experiences I had, this really couldn’t be classified as one. The kids all survived. I’m living proof.

My mom’s 90 and is herself in an Alzheimer’s unit. Therapy pets visit and that seems to go over really well. Nursery children too. Honestly, most of the residents’ eyes light up with joy.
My dad spent the last year of his life in an Alzheimer’s unit (he didn’t have Alzheimer’s but it was the only facility with a dialysis machine he could access). My toddler son visited him every single day and even wheeled some of the patients around small areas (this is over 20 years ago so… things were different). Yes, there was lots of screaming and pandemonium. It’s just part of being alive. It never bothered my son in the least. He was there to see grandad and the wheelchairs.

Honestly, opt out if it’s not for your child. You have a voice and a choice. And what’s ok with me, for example, absolutely doesn’t have to be ok for you or your child.

All that said, those screamers were once kids too. Try to humanise the residents and teach your child to do so. There’s a life lesson here for your child if you wish to utilise it.

I think visits to adults that aren't even on the same floor as the patients with dementia who shout etc. is fine.

If they hear it, I'm sure the teachers will explain it's people that are unwell, that you can do too. It's not "exposure" in a negative sense.

Some children (and adults who aren't elderly) have special needs and shout and scream and make odd noises. We don't keep them locked up so presumably your child will experience them out and about?

The faces throwing/smearing was not something I witnessed during children’s visits, but it happened on a frequent enough basis that I wouldn’t ever consent to my child visiting. None of the care staff thought it was appropriate to have visits. I think it was likely due to the clueless manager who didn’t seem to risk assess anything appropriately and the schools/nurseries not being aware of what the residents were actually like. Obviously the care staff attempted to keep away the most agitated residents, but the visits really wasn’t beneficial for the residents and probably not the children either.

I've only experienced the kind of screaming I'm talking about here either in the nursing home or from similarly unwell/distressed patients in hospital wards. I have never encountered behaviour like this in other, ordinary, mundane settings. Or at least, not for any sustained period of time.

And to the pp who seems to think I should use this as a teaching opportunity for my child - I am posting here as the daughter of a resident who has advanced dementia and is one of those who groans and wails loudly and distressingly.

I'm going to contact the local education authority with my concerns. I understand the thinking behind the visits, but I do think, as a pp also suggests, that there is a lack of understanding of the difference between care homes (for those who are frail or struggle to live without support) and nursing homes where many if not all of the residents are actively unwell can and to behave in ways which can be distressing to hear and see.

To those who think it's ok to take small children into nursing homes where they might hear people screaming and crying out, because it's some kind of life lesson - life is full of potentially distressing and upsetting experiences, but the usual approach is to protect small children from them, not expose them to potential trauma!

I know which school as the nursing home posted photos of the visit on their social media.

I think it's a good thing for young children to be aware of, and to have it explained to them. Children take so much in their stride and are far less judgmental than adults, they don't need to be wrapped in cotton wool and shielded from anything difficult. With all of us living older it's going to be a factor of many more lives in future.

@DorisTheFinkasaurus "The kids all survived. I’m living proof"
That's a pretty low bar to the come to the conclusion that the visit was a good idea.

The nursery visits you describe (most of the residents' eye light up) does not sound like what OP is describing.

Your toddler son visiting your father with you is very, very different to a school or nursery visit. Some young children would be very bothered by screaming from distressed adults and nursery/school staff would not be able to give one child the attention they needed, or to try and 'humanise the residents'. These are things parents should be teaching their children, not school.

I agree that children don't need to be shielding from the harshness of life. I am one of the MN'ers that believe it's OK for children to attend funerals.

I do not think visits to nursing homes where residents are in distress is an appropriate school trip.

Protecting children from the realities of life can make them excessively fragile and unable to cope with adulthood. We are seeing the effects of that in our society today.

I think it is extremely unlikely that the children do have it explained to them. Their visit is with those residents who are more able. However, in the background they will hear the screaming and shouting out etc of the more unwell residents. And I'm not talking about the occasional scream or shout. I'm talking about constant screaming and shouting, from people who cannot be consoled, comforted or quietened. It is very distressing to hear, and I don't seen any benefit to small children in over-hearing that. There are other ways and other places in which they can interact with older people.

And to the pp who seems to think I should use this as a teaching opportunity for my child - I am posting here as the daughter of a resident who has advanced dementia and is one of those who groans and wails loudly and distressingly.

OP, have you spoken to the nursing home manager? I would want them to explain why they think it's ok for nursery children to visit residents with advanced dementia.

Plopping them into an environment which is distressing for them isn't the way to raise resilient children. I'm pretty sure these visits are described as 'children visiting and providing some entertainment or company for residents' and not 'a chance for your child to be exposed to residents with advanced dementia'.

Maybe if you had been exposed / explained it as a child it wouldn’t bother you so much now

Within the safety of my family maybe, not as part of a school trip.

Well, it’s not low bar because we never returned, if you read my post. It wasn’t a great idea. Nothing terrible happened. I mean, I don’t know… pick your battles in life. Unasked personal opinion? OP just needs to have her child opt out. She doesn’t need to die on this hill. Just come to a decision she believes is right for her child and move on.

I think it depends on whether they are visiting those with dementia or not. These are usually in a separate unit.

OP doesn't have a child visiting, she's wondering about the appropriateness of young children visiting the facility her father is a resident at.
I don't think she's anguishing over it (no picking battles and dying on hills), just asking for opinions and wondering whether she should find out more.

What other distressing realities of life do you think small children should be exposed to?

Day trips to court to hear evidence given at rape and murder trials? Outings to A&E Departments to see people with various injuries and ailments? All part of the rich fabric of life, eh?!

This, very much this.
Kids are going to experience many upsetting things throughout life and shielding them from it all makes it a much harder blow when something unexpected happens. We’ve seen friends/acquaintances who didn’t let their children experience anything they deemed too „distressing” including such things as the news or family illness even expressed in child appropriate terms and then they wonder why their children couldn’t handle shock or even disappointment appropriately as they got older. It also makes explaining family and friends deaths a lot harder too.