School children visiting nursing home - residents screaming!

[Albless]

My DF is in a nursing home - and some of the other residents scream and cry out. I can hear this when visiting my DF, and when windows are open it is very clearly audible from outside the building. I do find it distressing - and am also quite distressed by the reality that you just have to ignore it as the people who scream can't easily be comforted or settled as their dementia is so severe. Sadly, this is the difficult reality for residents, staff and visitors.

However, the nursing home hosts visits from local school children - primary school age. They tend to spend time with the residents are more able - frail rather than demented, and are usually downstairs where those residents are mostly located. My DF is upstairs and it really can be a very challenging environment at times with disturbed mobile, or would-be mobile, residents and those who scream and shout.

I know that there can be benefits for children and older people to spend time together, but after a recent visit by local children, I can't help thinking that a nursing home which cares for those who scream, shout and behave in unpredictable ways is not a suitable environment for such visits. Maybe a residential home or sheltered accommodation for those who are frail but otherwise competent, and capable of behaving appropriately would be a better place to visit.

What do you think? My DM thinks it's ok - but she's very deaf and very often doesn't hear the screaming. She didn't realise until I mentioned it that the screams and shouts can be heard from outside the building. The most recent visit from the children had them outside in the garden with some of the more able residents, so they would have been able to hear sounds of distress from open windows.

I don't know whether to mention it to the nursing home, or to the local education authority. Maybe the latter would be better as they have a duty of care and must have to complete a risk assessment before taking the children on a visit there.

No, the shouting is usually at all times, children or no children. Some are in great physical and mental suffering and I'm not sure they would consider their physical space a safe space at all, if you know what I mean.

I agree op. My mother was very what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger so I was exposed to loads of inappropriate stuff. I had an uncle that was a nurse in a what would have been called a mental hospital in the eighties, we all went for a trip there one Saturday afternoon, actually onto the ward and i remember that these poor people were so ill that they weren’t allowed sheets on the beds. Bit like in the 18th century when people would have a day out to Bedlam.

Sure, if you come across someone with dementia as you go about your day to day life then you can explain in an age-appropriate way.

I'm pretty sure trips to care homes are not meant to be learning opportunities for young children to learn about degenerative brain conditions.

Oh I know that. I have decades of experience visiting these places.

Black humour and all that.

OP, maybe you could suggest the school visit a CARE home rather than a NURSING home; the latter looks after people with more complex needs.

Interesting take. I was visiting one almost every day from August last year until January this year to visit and provide company for a grandparent dying with dementia and lung cancer.

I saw plenty of confused elderly people, heard cries from lots of bedrooms and saw the funeral directors van outside on occasion.

I knew what I was walking into because when I was 11 I was taken to visit my Grandmother in a similar home with dementia. I enjoyed neither experience but was prepared for the second one.

Like many of these initiatives it is meant well but ends up futile or positively harmful.

My DG is in a nursing home and walking down the corridors you can see in the open doors or bodies lying there in bed, often there are screams and one particular lady with dementia continually shouts ‘help’ in the most distressing way (DG is quite deaf so not aware). I don’t like it and I won’t take my 2 DC there anymore- I know it is reality but it is a distressing reality that they don’t need to be faced with at their age or know how to deal with.

I would be horrified at school children seeing this, however if it is in a downstairs lounge for example separated away from residents rooms with the more able then I wouldn’t have a problem with it.

It doesn't sound a good place for young children to visit, it may upset the residents and their families too, no one wants outsiders to see and hear their ill relatives, maybe a residential home or day centre would be better. We visited day centres when we were children and "helped" several the tea and cakes joined in activities, put a show on if all that's still allowed. Please don't refer to residents as "demented",that's very outdated and unkind.

As a child in the 80s we went to perform ‘ country dancing’ at the elderly home over the road. We were very excited and expected the residents to be like our grandparents we didn’t know it was a dementia home. Some of the audience shouted at us and said we were rubbish.Others just stared as though we weren’t there. I was 8 and I still remember it vividly.

But surely you'd have been more prepared the second time anyway, just because you wouldn't have been 11 years old and a child?

I've been to hospital before as a child but going to visit other people as an adult on 2 occasions I was shocked both times. Once because the persons bed was opposite the toilet and there were old men going in and out and leaving the door wide open - it was also baking hot and smelt. And the second time because there was a young male patient abusing other patients and security had to be called. I certainly wasn't prepared for either situation just because I'd been to hospital before - but obviously as I was an adult I could cope fine, just a bit shocked.

Taking children to places where people are screaming and clearly unhappy isn't going to make them think 'oh this is fine and normal and I'll know what to expect next time', it's more likely just to terrify them no matter what they're told and not to want to go there again. I agree with a PP on taking children to visit care homes NOT nursing homes.

I had this in primary school - often taken to sing.

I found it scary and depressing and some didn't like what we sang and were vocal about it.

I accompanied my parents to visist DGP in homes as they got old and did dread it but found them much nicer experiences - I don't know if they were better - it was certainly a decade later or if it was knowing who I was seeing rather than strangers.

Children need to be exposed to these things gently so that it doesn’t become a shock when they need to visit someone. Also, it’s not just dementia patients that scream and cry like this. I work is a send school and we have children who can become distressed and cry like this. Many of these children will have siblings who have to grow up in a family where this happens. We often take our children and young people out in the community and behaviour can change within seconds and they can become upset in public. Sometimes they aren’t even upset. Sometimes it’s self stimming behaviours. But people shouldn’t be scared to see people in public with different behaviours to ‘the norm’.

I grew up visiting care homes as a child. We went as a group similar to the children nowadays. Singing and performing. The main thing I recall not liking about the care homes was the smell.

I used to work in a nursing home with residents that mainly had late stage dementia/ other psychiatric conditions. We had classes of little kids visiting. My child’s nursery requested permission to visit that nursing home and I said no. Not only was there screaming, but unpredictable aggression and feces throwing/smearing etc. Unfortunately don’t think there’s much you can do though as the nursing home and children’s school have obviously deemed it safe.

The playgroup described where they are with parents who can comfort or remove children and make a choice about whether they are happy with being there is one thing.

Children taken on a school trip with minimal care - because as stated upthread teachers don't have enough time to do more than count heads, certainly not to deal with children's emotional responses (which are supressed anyway in a school environment) - really don't think this is okay, not at all for the benefit of the children - and frankly that is the most important thing.

Some older adults going into school to talk to children about particular topics/living history - absolutely.
.
But what is described - no way. Not in the best interests of the children.

Yeah reading OP's update it doesn't sound great for the children. I think I was projecting my own experience there a little.

A nursery had a trip to a nursing home where residents were smearing & throwing feaces?

I have no experience with organising nursery/school trips, but really can't believe that passed the risk assessment.

How distressing for any visiting family to see a bunch of little kids witness their loved ones at their most vulnerable. I actually find it hard to believe that any secure unit (for surely anyone so unwell that they have lost all inhibitions would need to be kept safe) would allow school/nursery visits.

We (family) were advised to delay a visit when my own FIL was reacting badly to new meds and exhibiting extremely upsetting lack of inhibition. Thankfully I have not heard of his nursing home inviting small children in.

I agree with you OP. Not suitable for children so young.

You do realise that it is risk assessed by both the school and the care home! Children usually enjoy interacting with the elderly and the elderly get pleasure from it! I really don’t think it’s something you need to get involved in!

I don’t disagree with the visits as a principle in itself. It can be very soothing and comforting for elderly people to be with children, watch them play, play with them, read to them, join in activities. And I imagine, under the right circumstances, it would be good for the children too, helping them gain empathy, observe caring environments, be involved in a community service which helps people.
However, they shouldn’t be exposed to an environment where people are distressed, confused and behaving in unpredictable and potentially frightening ways. The upset this could cause to children outweighs the potential positives for the residents I’m afraid. Unless these residents are in a separate wing and the children not exposed to this stuff, it shouldn’t be happening. I agree a residential home or sheltered housing would be better.

Both the home and the school will have carried out risk assessments! Why are you concerned with something that doesn’t impact you directly? The parents will have also given their consent for these visits!

I think that as long as the children are warned, it is important for them to see that elderly people who are unwell do shout and scream. I say this from the experience of my mum going into a home and then being hospitalised as a result of dementia. At the time my dd was about 7 and I often took her to visit my mum. Yes, there were residents and patients who were shouting and screaming. They were also engaging us in various outlandish conversations. There was no way of avoiding this if we were visiting, but I thought that it was important that my dd understood that this is part of life,

It's not your place to make assumptions about whether or not the children are upset.
If they are then it would be dealt with by the school.

I think it's part of life and kids need to know what it's like to get old and be respectful and understanding of the elderly. Not scared of them.

Many will have elderly relatives who will end up in a home so it's good that they'll know what to expect.

Frankly it's not really something you need to make comment on.

I don't see an issue personally but you can always opt out. I work in a setting that takes the children to visit a care home regularly. The residents have never been heard screaming or shouting and both the residents and children get very excited for their monthly session. It has so many benefits for both the older people and the children and is heavily risk assessed. I have also worked in a dementia unit and know how hard it is, but hopefully most schools would be sensible enough to only visit the more able residents.