Estrangement, theft, and deputyship

[vivvyenn]

This will be long so please bear with me.
I have been estranged from my mother for about 15 months after she was highly abusive towards me and my daughter; that's another story but in short, I did a 100 mile round trip to check on her as she wasn't replying to anyone's calls or texts, and when we got there she flipped, mocked me, mimicked me, called me a liar and ignored my daughter. I'm disabled and don't/can't drive far but I was worried about her so made the trip. She told me she didn't need or want me or my children.
Fast forward to now. My sister came home from Oz to see our mother, but she became sick (mum, not sis) and went into hospital and then into a care home while sis was here. My brother, whom I haven't spoken to for many years - abusive, misogynistic, racist, homophobic, far right... You get the idea - was supposed to be looking after her, but when sis came home it became apparent that she was malnourished and dehydrated.
Brother has control of her finances, although not officially. He got sacked from his job for calling in sick and then posting photos from abroad (thick s**t) but I have suspected for a long time that he has been stealing from mum's account to fund his 5 or 6 overseas holidays a year, plus dozens of weekends away in between.
Today the care home called my sister and said that the initial funding for mums care has run out and none has been put in place, so they're kicking her out. Brother was supposed to be sorting out an interim order to access her funds to pay, but he hasn't, and now she faces being moved into a council care home... The home she is in now is lovely with en suite bathrooms etc and costs almost 2k a week.
When sis contacted brother, he said he no longer wants to deal with it, so she's lost her place in this nice care home.
Sis managed to get hold of mums bank statements when she was here (she's back in Oz now) and brother has mum's credit card... He has been withdrawing £300 every few days, as much as 2k per month, and that money has not gone to mum. What's more, sis took photos of text messages on mum's phone to brother asking for her credit card, which he has refused.
I fully believe he has either emptied her bank account completely so there is no money for her care, or he has realised that her finances will now be examined and he stands to be found out. His girlfriend is only on a low pay grade and he doesn't work so there's no way they can afford these holidays on their own... He's getting married in Morocco in November!
My sister wants me to apply for deputyship so that I can make decisions about her finances. But having looked into it, I don't know if I can. I am in ill health myself, I'm disabled, and am now under cardiology and also waiting for a liver scan as bloods show some kind of liver disease. I'm crippled with arthritis, pernicious anaemia, fibro, and walk on crutches. I survive on a very part time self employed income, and PIP. I'm not even sure if I would be approved due to my own very precarious financial position. It costs upwards of 1k to apply for deputyship with all the fees etc, and while I know I can apply to the courts for exemption, they don't have to accept it and I can't afford to pay all that money; I can barely pay my own rent.
My sister wants me to do it rather than her because she would never get exemption from the fees due to savings, and also because it will be easier as she's on the other side of the world.
But I honestly don't know if I have it in me. I care about my mum but after the abuse she gave both me and my daughter last year, I had made peace with not having her in my life (she's very narcissistic and difficult to get on with at the best of times, and had never been there for me during the worst periods of my life). Stress causes me to flare up massively with pain, I'm being investigated for heart disease, I have high blood pressure and brain lesions which have caused memory loss and brain fog... Stress is very bad for me.
I don't know what to do about my brother; I want to report him to the police but my sister is the one with the evidence. He's got form and did time in borstal for robbery, by the way. It sickens me that he is doing this.
Has anyone here been through the deputyship application? Or dealt with a thieving scumbag sibling? I'm so stressed even thinking about it all.
If you have read this far, thank you.

Don’t even consider getting involved in this absolute mess. It’s not yours to fix.
Call the police on your brother. He has financially abused your mum.
Others will be able to advise on social care involvement to arrange for fees etc to be paid and it doesn’t need you to make yourself unwell taking on more than you’re able to.

Thank you, it is, as you say, an absolute mess. I feel for my sister as she was the one who had to deal with mum going into hospital and then the home, both of which mum played merry hell over. She spent her entire time here visiting mum in both and, although she hasn't said it, I think she resents the fact that she had to do it all. I was there to listen to my sister but for my own sake, I couldn't get any more involved; I also had a duty to protect my daughter... Although she was 19 at the time, I couldn't allow mums abuse to go unnoticed, if that makes sense. My daughter needs to know that I have her back and also that being family does not excuse abuse.
She's never been there for me when I was going through domestic abuse, when myself and my three children were homeless, when I suffered a catastrophic miscarriage that almost killed me (she said she was delighted I lost the baby).
I think I am going to have to tell my sister I cannot do it. When she suggested today that I do it instead of her, I thought it would be a straightforward process but it's not, and even the 'official' websites warn that it's a long and stressful process.
I just can't afford to be drawn into any more stress. I'm fighting hard to try and get on top of my health, but almost all the issues I have are exacerbated by stress.

Agree, don't take this on. Report brother to the police and mums bank fraud department, the carehome or you can report this to the adult safeguarding team, the courts can appoint a deputy. Do you know who decided she needed a carehom, who arranged it and who signed the contesct, also did mum have a capacity assessment or agree to letting brother have her cards.

Call the police about your brother. Don’t take on deputyship, you are not well enough and saving fees is not worth the effort

Thanks for your reply. I believe the hospital says she was well enough to leave hospital but not well enough to go home as she lives by herself. I know DSis drive around a few homes with her friend so I'm assuming she arranged it and agreed to it. DM had an assessment at the care home and scored very low on the dementia testing. I believe she gave him her card before she got so ill so he could do her shopping for her and pay bills, but she's asked for it back and he's refused. X

I think you're right, I'm not well enough. Even if things had been good between DM and myself, I don't think I'd have been able, but given how vile she has been to me and my daughter, I'm reluctant to put myself through it. I'm going to have to ask DSis to either report it herself or send me the evidence.. I've been staying well out of it for my own sake so I have nothing to show to them if I report it. Xx

You need to contact the bank asap and get a stop on her card

I doubt they would let me do that as I don't have PoA or anything that enables me to discuss her account. I don't know which card it is, either, and don't have any details.

Don’t do the deputyship. Your mum was abusive. The council care home will have to do.

And report brother to police. You don’t need the evidence - stealing from vulnerable elderly is commonplace and they’ll be able to access her bank account to see it all.

She was, so much. I think I feel guilty for DSis rather than DM; she's not a nice person, truly narcissistic. Just as an example, she was in hospital a few years ago and an elderly woman opposite her was waiting for her son to come back with clothes as she was being discharged. But while the elderly lady was waiting, she slumped over on her bed, struggling to breathe. My mother sat and watched the lady die in front of her and said she didn't call the nurse as she 'didn't want to look silly if it turned out to be nothing'. She literally let the woman die in front of her eyes. Everything has always been about how she looks to others. Another example, when I fled domestic violence myself and my three children went into a women's refuge. My now ex husband reported me to the police for abduction and the first place they went looking was at my mum's house. When the police got hold of me, they told me they had been to her house, so I called her to explain what had happened. Instead of asking how we were, if we were ok etc, she launched into an absolute torrent of abuse, screaming at me about what the neighbours must have thought seeing the police turning up. Didn't ask once if me and the children were ok, the only thing that mattered was how the neighbours perceived her. So I find it very very hard to forgive her for all those times and came to terms with not having a 'mum' many years ago.

You can still call the banks fraud department, the police, adult social services safeguarding team and Elder Abuse uk. If she is paying for the carehome herself before she moved in she may have had a financial assessment, some need proof if funds for a certain amount of time, a contract would have been signed and the homes administrator would have her bank details if she paid directly from her bank. If large sums of money have disappeared from her account, she's not withdrawn or been given that money then obviously someone else has stolen it so it's theft.

I believe the home she was in needed proof of a year's worth of capital. But I was under the impression that the feed were paid by the local authority for either 6 or 10 weeks before they need payment from a patients own funds. I'll have to double check that though. X

She may have got weeks reablement funding if she went to the carehome from hospital, does she have a proper in her name or just money.

She went from the hospital so, having looked it up, it seems she had 6 weeks funded. No, no property, but some savings, not a fortune though.

Have gone through something similar. In the following order:

Call the bank cancel the cards. Say they have gone missing and your Mother is in a care home.

Contact adult social care team and raise a formal safeguarding alert. Ask to speak to a social care team and push for a care act assessment (new one or an update).

Ask social care team to apply for deputyship on your Mother’s behalf. You do not need to do this, they can do it for you. Once they have access to your Mother’s finances they will be able to track any fraudulent payments and reclaim any costs owing. They will assign a dedicated solicitor to your Mother.

Report fraud to Police.

Hope that helps.

Excellent advice.

I'm sorry you have gone through it, too. I will give the bank a try and see if they'll let me do that, thanks. Will adult social care look into financial abuse?
My sister spoke to a social worker who had contacted her about DM's place in the home, and she told Dsis that brother wanted to hand over responsibility for finances etc to the council. The social worker told Dsis that it's not as simple as that, that they have to track down all members of the family as it's them who have to apply for deputyship?

I'm going to speak to Dsis about the police as it really does need to be reported, it's sickening that someone can do this.

I suspect my sister will now be in a mood with me as, having thought it through all evening and looked into it, I really don't think it's something I can do. She called me at 8am but I had only just woken up and couldn't face dealing with it again today just after waking, so I didn't pick up and text her instead, explaining that I didn't think I could do it and listing the reasons why; I am living paycheck to paycheck at the moment due to sickness and disability, and I suspect they wouldn't assign deputyship to me because of that (I wouldn't ever touch a penny of her money but they don't know that). I would need all of DM's financial information, which I don't have access to. They would contact both brother and Dsis with a chance to object, and I strongly suspect he would object out of spite as he's a nasty POS. Everything I've read says it's a very stressful process, and I have been warned to avoid stress by GP and cardiologist. It even says that I would need to get Dm's consent for every spend, and while I'm happy to help out from a distance, I cannot put myself back in DM's line of fire again.

Dsis hasn't replied yet, so I think she will be extremely angry that I have said no. But it struck me this morning; yesterday, while speaking to her about this on the phone, I was reading from the gov website and said that if the applicant has more than (I think) £25k in savings, they won't be eligible for a discount on the fees, but if they have under that amount, they may get help or exemption. She said 'well I can't apply then as I have more than that'. So...I am expected to take it all on my shoulders because I'm poor?

DM has been extremely abusive towards both me and my youngest daughter (she's from my second marriage and was never really accepted), and I just can't subscribe to the idea that someone can treat people like absolute s**t throughout their life, and then expect to be forgiven and looked after just because they're elderly.

I can feel a panicky feeling growing inside me. I work hard to keep my life nice and calm, it's just me and my youngest daughter at home, and I'm very close to my older daughter and son, who are both married. And having anything to do with this would blow that all to bits.

Honestly, I'm really just getting my thoughts out of my head and onto the screen here, as I know what I have to do.

It's,adult,social,services safeguarding team you need to speak to, the social worker is wrong, the court of protection can, I think, appoint a deputy, the family are not obliged to take on this responsibility. Your sisters savings don't matter, it's your mum's savings that they look at, if it goes below the threshold she will be eligible for council funding.,

I don’t blame you not wanting to do it, but equally I don’t blame your Dsis either for having had enough of shouldering the burden. Is the deputyship or whatever it’s called actually needed ? I mean the money has been spent even if you report it, it isn’t coming back so there isn’t much to worry about. Tell Dsis that neither of you should apply - she will go to a council care home - it’s not the worst outcome in the world.

I think you should report DB to the police. They can investigate further and get account details themselves.

@vivvyenn you need to report it as an urgent safeguarding issue and demand a care act assessment. I would do this via email ASAP. Apart from staying on top of the team to make sure they are doing their job properly you should not have to do anything.

As part of the assessment they will look at whether your mum has capacity to make her own decisions. This must include a formal capacity assessment for finances. If she is deemed not capable of making her own decisions regarding finances you can then ask the Council to step in and apply for Deputyship on your Mum's behalf. As part of the legal application they will need to notify three people. Those three people are likely to be you, your Sister and your brother. All of you are entitled to make decisions about whether or not you agree with the Deputyship application but it does not stop the application. All it might do is influence what reporting regime the social care team have to put in place.

Your biggest and most urgent issue is starting the ball rolling. After that it is in the hands of the authority. It wouldn't surprise me if the care home haven't already logged this with the social care team, and if they haven't you can ask them to also do so to add weight behind your alert.

As she is about to lose her placement, and isn't fit to return home, the Local authority need to be notified now.

She's talking about exemption of the fees; if I read correctly, if the applicant has less than x amount, they will be exempt or discounted, but if they are above that then they have to pay the full fees? I may have that wrong, though, although I think you have to send payment with the application.

No, I agree. But also, I have been the scapegoat for my entire life, whereas my sister emigrated when I was 13 so has largely missed the stress of dealing with a narcissistic mother. Bro is the golden child and so everything fell to me. But I do agree that it would be hard for her to take it on, especially living on the other side of the world.
The deputyship is to deal with her finances going forward, including paying care home fees; the issue of theft is a separate issue and it's very hard to swallow that he has done that to his elderly mother, although it doesn't surprise me in the slightest. The only reason he has relinquished control now is because her finances will now be under scrutiny whether I apply for deputyship or social care does and he's just realised that there's nothing in it for him now.

With the police, would they need to speak to DM? She has dementia now, and has always had a huge chip on her shoulder regarding them. Plus, she would never have a word said against bro, even though she has voiced concerns about him accessing her money before.

It's just a huge mess.

I am sorry I have no idea if your DM would become involved if you contacted the police.

Regarding the deputyship I had a quick google about it and I absolutely agree you should not do it. I guess my point was that if your Dsis doesn’t apply either, then someone in the system will end up sorting it out and - unless your DM has some great estate- then maybe best of neither of you applies.

I applied for deputyship - it took 6 months to get from the High Court and cost @£1000 in solicitor fees. It will give you access to her accounts but it may be too late by then financially as it sounds like he's spent most of it.
Have you access to her house where you and your daughter can search for any financial documentation before you go to the Police? You also need to check what credit he may have taken out in her name.

We are years no contact with mil. Her solicitor told us we would be very unlikely to be awarded deputyship because of this. Her social worker has applied for it instead but it is a waiting game.