Elderly GF suddenly needing care but possible deprivation of assets issue

[ThisBreezySnake]

Hi, my GF is 93 and has been living alone since my GM died 8 years ago. He has always been fit and well and was even driving up until recently.

He has been slowing down over the past few years but nothing out of the ordinary other than ageing.

A Couple of weeks ago he fell at home and hit his head, it was a small cut with lots of blood but despite my best efforts refused to go to hospital. I got my nurse friend to check him out and all was OK.

Since then he has become almost a shell of himself, he is unsteady, cannot use stairs, cannot go to the toilet alone etc.

On the day of the fall he went to stay with my Dad, they have a somewhat tumultuous relationship, neither are easy people but I would say my Dad is the worse of the two (I don't get along well with him either).

GF has another son but they are estranged and don't speak to one another at all.

After a few days at Dad's I was phoned to come urgently, Dad said GF had hit him for no reason. GF says this is an exaggeration and Dad had pushed him to his limit (I can well believe this).

GF insisted on returning home and I was going there at least twice a day to check on him. He does not have a downstairs loo but told me he was managing to get upstairs.

On Friday when I arrived in the morning, he had knocked a table over and there was faeces on the floor. It also transpires he has been urinating in tupperware and pouring it down the sink instead of using the toilet.

He begged me to let him live with me. I don't have a spare bedroom (it's me, DH and 2 young sons). We both work and boys are in full time school.

I brought him home and he has been sleeping on the couch, I take him to the toilet and he calls me in the night when he needs to go. I'm exhausted.

He is willing to have a care assessment and I am waiting on a callback from the LA.

BUT, some years ago (10ish) my grandparents signed their home over to their 2 children (my Dad and brother) to avoid inheritance taxes. This is nothing to do with me, but would that be deprivation of assets?

Quite frankly it doesn't bother me if it was but will it affect/hold up any care plan for GF, i just want the best for him ASAP.

Assuming that your grandfather used to be married, unless his house is worth over 1 million pounds, there'll be no IHT to pay, whatever he did with the house.

The IHT allowance is £375k pp (including the spouse who died first) plus up to £250k for the home that he owned. So even if HMRC decided that the home should be covered as his, it'd have to be worth a heck of a lot for it to be an issue

That seems a fair point and can see how they would want to avoid pursuing it all the way.

After hearing everyone's advice on the DOA I am now feeling lots better about that aspect of the situation, as in I don't care about what happens to the house I'm just glad it shouldnt cause any immediate delay

Unfortunately it is not mine to sell. That would be a decision for my Dad and uncle, and I can imagine they would not want to do that.

Yes it was my grandparents house. My GM passed 5 years ago but the house was signed over when they were both alive.

It is probably worth £300k at the most.

There are absolutely no issues with IHT then. HMRC won't be remotely interested when his house (if they want to count it as his) and cash doesn't even come close to his own personal allowance limit.

Deffo no IHT to pay, but, whoever executes the estate will have to do a full IHT400 declaring the gift as part of the probate procedure - if that is correctly done HMRC will be satisfied and there should not be any further issues, however there may be CGT to pay when it is sold.

Good to know thank you. I may tell them about not signing a DPA but to be honest I doubt they will have much to do with SS going forward if anything and I will certainly not sign anything!

And yes, they are the only names on there

That makes sense thank you.

I should say that won't be my problem shouldn't I! I'm too nice though

Sign nothing, nothing at all - yes and tell them not to either, there is nothing they or you need to be signing unless any of you are POA

Dad and I are POA jointly?

If he had no knowledge he would need care at the time of signing the house over, it cannot be viewed as deprivation of assets, I deal with this all the time, and its not going to happen

This is utterly incorrect.

The ops GF was into his 80's when they signed the house over. An 80-odd year old being so utterly fit that they could successfully argue they could not forsee any time they would need care would be highly unusual. So that's - no arthritis, no painful knees in medical records, no GP visits about any condition at all that could potentially be progressive. That's one lucky 83 year old.

As the house was signed over 10 years ago and op's GM died 2 years later you can absolutely count on the fact that they will also be looking closely at her death. If her death was due to a condition or health issue that existed two years earlier, they could also argue DDoA on the basis of it being done to avoid the expected care needs of the wife.

There is no time-limit that LA's have. They can look back 25 years if they want. Many LA'S are utterly ruthless and will comb through every medical visit, every hospital appointment, for any comment, symptom, diagnosis or pattern that they can use.

Whilst all of this is going on of course, there will likely be solicitors fees to pay. And LA's aren't even limited by death to bring a DDoA claim. There are many, many cases where care fees have been met by the council for several years and AFTER death, this seems to be the catalyst for a review. Probate - dead in the water, held up for months or years whilst solicitor's fight it out and fees rack up.

The poster who said she 'deals with it all the time' and it definitely won't happen is lying. DoA is a minefield and I don't for one second believe that anyone routinely involved with DoA situations would never have experienced situations like this where the LA was successful or at the very least cost the family thousands of pounds to fight it.

OK, in that case make sure you read anything very carefully first - out of interest was the transfer of the property to your dad before or after he became POA?

If before no worries, if after it could be argued he acted against your GFs best interests taking the gift and could get messy...

Wow this is very informative thank you, and I would certainly be frightened if I was Dad or Uncle.

I will say though as it does make me smile. I don't think GF has been to the GP for at least 20 years, at 83 he was most certainly a very lucky man ☺️

Sounds just like the scare rhetoric used by LAs all the time, fact is, in real life, it rarely happens, most simply write off the cost and move on...

I've been dealing with care costs for 20 years, I can think of one case where the LA went after DoA, and it was a slam dunk 4 months before affair and screaming obvious.

Just want to say thank you to each and every one of you for taking the time to comment, i have ready every one and taken all advice.

I must sleep now and I will be back to update tomorrow!

Having had to deal with elderly parents/ care homes/ struggling to get them care, I have a lot of sympathy for you being in this position.

I echo pp advising he needs medical assessment.

Re money, I don't know the legal position, but morally he was trying to deprive himself off assets wasn't he? He wanted his children to inherit his house so gave it them before he died. He surely would have known this would be trying to avoid any care costs. Even a healthy 60 year old could foresee this might happen in future.

Nothing personal, and I know this isn't your doing/ you aren't gaining, but I hope LAs do go after people doing this. Why should taxpayers potentially fund his care when he has/d money he didn't want to spend. Makes a mockery of others who have to sell their homes.

I hope you get things sorted as it sounds impossible for you, but his sons need to drum up some cash for his care by selling or renting out his home.

POA was only done last year, the signing over of the house was approx 10 years ago.

I don't disagree with you. Personally I always try and make good choices and just hope to be a decent human. It's not a choice I would have made and I'm not really sure what the goal was when they did this.

I really am stuck between a rock and a hard place 🥺

If he continued to live in his home without paying his sons market rent (which would be liable to income tax for them) after signing it over to them, then it is a ‘gift with reservation of benefit’ and will still be liable for inheritance tax.

If your grandfather is still as sharp as a tack he must be made to understand your situation and that his living on the sofa is untenable. He will have to accept that he has to go home or hospital to get proper assessment and help. He can’t simply ‘refuse’ as you don’t have the capacity to be his full time carer. You can explain this and do this in a caring manner - but he will have to understand that this will be the best for everyone, even if it is difficult to begin with.

As far as deprivation of assets I would not concern yourself with this issue as it was not, and is not, a concern or problem of your making. Let others deal with it as they wish; you will have no impact on the outcome of the issue either. You sound lovely OP but are taking so much responsibility for everything. I would just focus on getting your GF home and trying to obtain proper medical / social care assessment and support for him.

I’m an adult social worker. I don’t deal with the finance side. I just have to clarify whether people have over a set amount in savings and houses are only taken into consideration when the person goes into a care home. Care home if LA funded will be the last resort. The care act is based around maintaining a persons independence for as long as possible. Research and experience also shows when a person does go into a care home they often become institutionalised, and their needs increase significantly.

Your GF needs a care act assessment and an occupational therapy assesssment. He still seems very independent and adaptations and support could help him to maintain this independence at home. Maybe a bed downstairs, a commode so he can use the toilet without having to go upstairs. And a care call to support with emptying this. Or even a stair lift, are all possibilities, with the OT assessment will assess for. It’s a shame he wouldn’t go to hospital at the time of the fall, as this would have likely led to an OT referral to ensure he is safe at home. Does he assistive technology such as a falls alarm? This again will help him remain safe at home with security if anything does happens. Are there any grab rails in place.

im glad to see you have contacted social care needs can decline very quickly and the situation could change. I would never let your father’s situation stand in the way of a person receiving care in a care home if that was what was needed. But be aware the financial side can take a long time if they do investigate. However I don’t oversee this part of the process. This is done by the finance team and the legal team. I hope that helps a little and if you need any advice please ask.

Can't comment on the DOA business but I have some observations about the situation your GF is in.

Don't rule out him being manipulative. He's estranged from one DS and has a tumultuous relationship with the other. There's a good chance he was far from being Dad Of The Year to them. Your dad may be difficult, but he's also partly a product of his upbringing. He may also not be difficult at all but just reacting to your GFs behaviour towards him. Your GF so far appears manipulative to me.

He won't go upstairs because he's had a fall, which has shocked him and he's lost confidence. No other deterioration you've described, sounds like it's all just the shock of being confronted with his own mortality. He should go to A&E but if he won't there's nothing you can do about it.

Urinating in Tupperware and pouring it down the sink isn't ideal but not a lifestyle choice that's going to harm him, so long as hygiene is being maintained. Where is he defecating? I don't buy the story about soiling himself and not noticing! Or saying it rolled out of his pyjamas. So none of it was mashed into his pyjamas then? And why was it left there on the floor? To make sure you saw it? He could have knocked the table over deliberately. If it's small enough to knock over why hasn't he righted it? Again, so you could see it?

The fall could well have been genuine, I'm not disputing that, but now I reckon he's milking it, having decided he'd prefer to be looked after. He's angling to move in with you permanently. Even the "I'll go to a care home then if I can't stay" smacks of manipulation.

He's not going to a care home, without the money to pay for it it isn't his decision to make. He'll get carers at home and maybe a stairlift or else a commode and the bed brought into the living room downstairs.

He needs to go back to his own home and await the care needs assessment. If you're helping him he'll get no help. They only have to meet needs not wants, at the moment you're meeting his needs.

He can shuffle up and downstairs on his butt if he doesn't feel safe walking. You need to stop caring for him before you make yourself ill.

I thought if you signed over your house to DC it no longer belonged to you and unless you paid rent for house to new owners it was seen as deliberate deprivation of assets.

I’d be pushing for carers visits 4x a day and a canine downstairs for niw

but first take him out in the car and arrive at a&e take him in and get him checked out

Camode not canine