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Elderly parents
Original poster

Elderly GF suddenly needing care but possible deprivation of assets issue

110 replies

ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 16:57

Hi, my GF is 93 and has been living alone since my GM died 8 years ago. He has always been fit and well and was even driving up until recently.

He has been slowing down over the past few years but nothing out of the ordinary other than ageing.

A Couple of weeks ago he fell at home and hit his head, it was a small cut with lots of blood but despite my best efforts refused to go to hospital. I got my nurse friend to check him out and all was OK.

Since then he has become almost a shell of himself, he is unsteady, cannot use stairs, cannot go to the toilet alone etc.

On the day of the fall he went to stay with my Dad, they have a somewhat tumultuous relationship, neither are easy people but I would say my Dad is the worse of the two (I don't get along well with him either).

GF has another son but they are estranged and don't speak to one another at all.

After a few days at Dad's I was phoned to come urgently, Dad said GF had hit him for no reason. GF says this is an exaggeration and Dad had pushed him to his limit (I can well believe this).

GF insisted on returning home and I was going there at least twice a day to check on him. He does not have a downstairs loo but told me he was managing to get upstairs.

On Friday when I arrived in the morning, he had knocked a table over and there was faeces on the floor. It also transpires he has been urinating in tupperware and pouring it down the sink instead of using the toilet.

He begged me to let him live with me. I don't have a spare bedroom (it's me, DH and 2 young sons). We both work and boys are in full time school.

I brought him home and he has been sleeping on the couch, I take him to the toilet and he calls me in the night when he needs to go. I'm exhausted.

He is willing to have a care assessment and I am waiting on a callback from the LA.

BUT, some years ago (10ish) my grandparents signed their home over to their 2 children (my Dad and brother) to avoid inheritance taxes. This is nothing to do with me, but would that be deprivation of assets?

Quite frankly it doesn't bother me if it was but will it affect/hold up any care plan for GF, i just want the best for him ASAP.

OP posts:
Original poster
ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 22:23

BeachRide · 13/04/2025 22:10

It's outrageous that you're having to do all this care and worrying, whilst your father and uncle are sitting pretty on the house money. Shame on them both.

Totally agree, an unforgivable selfish act. I expected more :(

OP posts:
Original poster
ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 22:24

redphonecase · 13/04/2025 22:12

Re the house thing ,if your grandparents have paid a market rent to your dad and his siblings, which they have paid tax on, it's fine. But I'd imagine none of that has happened.

No you are correct, this has not happened.

OP posts:
SeaToSki · 13/04/2025 22:27

Would GF go to A and E for an assessment on his head of that meant it would speed up getting a place in a home, and he would be safe and comfortable in the meantime?

Original poster
ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 22:27

godmum56 · 13/04/2025 22:12

Speaking as a professional, now retired, and daughter of a late beloved mother, my advice, even though you love him dearly is to have a conversation with him about the fact that this cannot go on. If he has capacity, then he needs to think about what he want do do out of the choices that he has and that staying with you for much longer is not one of them. I am glad to see you have contacted Social Services and I hope they respond soon.

Show quote history

Thank you, i have told him that he is merely staying and cannot 'live' here, he understands but does not want to go back home and be cared for there.

I appreciate that what he wants may not be the priority of SS but I'm not sure he wants to believe that.

OP posts:
DiscoBeat · 13/04/2025 22:30

Surely it wouldn't be deprivation of assets if it was 10 years ago and he was in good health. But yes getting him checked out is paramount.

Original poster
ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 22:32

catofglory · 13/04/2025 22:17

@ThisBreezySnake
It's good GF is accepting of the idea of residential care.

Your problem will be getting SS to agree. They almost always insist on trying at-home care first. So he may get a care home placement but it is unlikely to be in the immediate future.

And I do agree with others that you should tell SS he is living in his own home, and when they visit for an assessment, ensure he is there.

He is now living with the consequences of giving his house away. If he had money from a property sale he could choose for himself what care he had, rather than relying on what SS decide. I'm sorry you have been put in this position.

Yes he is certainly regretful about a decision that he made trying to do the best for his children who now have essentially abandoned him :(

I understand now that it will be more difficult if I tell SS he is with us. I just hate being dishonest and don't want to drop him off at home unless I know they will come?

OP posts:
Original poster
ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 22:35

SeaToSki · 13/04/2025 22:27

Would GF go to A and E for an assessment on his head of that meant it would speed up getting a place in a home, and he would be safe and comfortable in the meantime?

Yes potentially if I explained it in this way to him. In all honesty I feel dreadful for not taking him there immediately after the fall but he seemed OK and my Dad took him home to keep an eye on him.

My Dad told me that they would be there for hours and would just be sent home and that wouldn't be good for my GF.

I naively thought he was right. Now I think he just didn't want the bother.

I feel like I should have advocated better for him :(

OP posts:
YourAzureEagle · 13/04/2025 22:38

ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 16:57

Hi, my GF is 93 and has been living alone since my GM died 8 years ago. He has always been fit and well and was even driving up until recently.

He has been slowing down over the past few years but nothing out of the ordinary other than ageing.

A Couple of weeks ago he fell at home and hit his head, it was a small cut with lots of blood but despite my best efforts refused to go to hospital. I got my nurse friend to check him out and all was OK.

Since then he has become almost a shell of himself, he is unsteady, cannot use stairs, cannot go to the toilet alone etc.

On the day of the fall he went to stay with my Dad, they have a somewhat tumultuous relationship, neither are easy people but I would say my Dad is the worse of the two (I don't get along well with him either).

GF has another son but they are estranged and don't speak to one another at all.

After a few days at Dad's I was phoned to come urgently, Dad said GF had hit him for no reason. GF says this is an exaggeration and Dad had pushed him to his limit (I can well believe this).

GF insisted on returning home and I was going there at least twice a day to check on him. He does not have a downstairs loo but told me he was managing to get upstairs.

On Friday when I arrived in the morning, he had knocked a table over and there was faeces on the floor. It also transpires he has been urinating in tupperware and pouring it down the sink instead of using the toilet.

He begged me to let him live with me. I don't have a spare bedroom (it's me, DH and 2 young sons). We both work and boys are in full time school.

I brought him home and he has been sleeping on the couch, I take him to the toilet and he calls me in the night when he needs to go. I'm exhausted.

He is willing to have a care assessment and I am waiting on a callback from the LA.

BUT, some years ago (10ish) my grandparents signed their home over to their 2 children (my Dad and brother) to avoid inheritance taxes. This is nothing to do with me, but would that be deprivation of assets?

Quite frankly it doesn't bother me if it was but will it affect/hold up any care plan for GF, i just want the best for him ASAP.

Legally, simply, no....

If he had no knowledge he would need care at the time of signing the house over, it cannot be viewed as deprivation of assets, I deal with this all the time, and its not going to happen.

but...

As he still lives in the house it was a gift with reservation of benefit, which means it is still counted for inheritance tax regardless of the legal owner - no 7 years, no nothing, he still has the beneficial interest therefore its whole value is counted. So nothing achieved there.

YourAzureEagle · 13/04/2025 22:40

DiscoBeat · 13/04/2025 22:30

Surely it wouldn't be deprivation of assets if it was 10 years ago and he was in good health. But yes getting him checked out is paramount.

No, it absolutely wouldn't, but its still his for purposes of inheritance tax.

If you give away your home, but continue to reside in it (excluding if you rent it at full market rent) it is classed as a gift with reservation of benefit, and still counted.

The 7 year rule does not apply to this type of gift, nor does taper relief.

No inheritance tax has been avoided!

Original poster
ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 22:42

YourAzureEagle · 13/04/2025 22:38

Legally, simply, no....

If he had no knowledge he would need care at the time of signing the house over, it cannot be viewed as deprivation of assets, I deal with this all the time, and its not going to happen.

but...

As he still lives in the house it was a gift with reservation of benefit, which means it is still counted for inheritance tax regardless of the legal owner - no 7 years, no nothing, he still has the beneficial interest therefore its whole value is counted. So nothing achieved there.

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That's really interesting thank you.

For once that's something I don't need to worry about, but my Dad and uncle should!

OP posts:
YourAzureEagle · 13/04/2025 22:44

ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 22:42

That's really interesting thank you.

For once that's something I don't need to worry about, but my Dad and uncle should!

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Indeed they should, they will have HMRC after them if its not declared on the IHT400 when he passes!

Whyx · 13/04/2025 22:46

I am in Scotland but in Scottish Law the clause that would allow a house to be used by one party and then eventually be left between the three of you would be a Liferent Trust. I think it's the same in the rest of UK law. Just in case you don't have the legal wording from the Will to hand and want to look into it further.

WhoAreYouTalkingTo · 13/04/2025 22:46

A family member signed her house over to my Dad 20 years ago, expressly to avoid care home fees. She even told the council (she has dementia but didn't when she signed the house over), when having her care assessment and they weren't the least bit interested.

WhoAreYouTalkingTo · 13/04/2025 22:47

The care assessment in my family members case was last year, so 20 years after she signed house over

Original poster
ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 22:50

Whyx · 13/04/2025 22:46

I am in Scotland but in Scottish Law the clause that would allow a house to be used by one party and then eventually be left between the three of you would be a Liferent Trust. I think it's the same in the rest of UK law. Just in case you don't have the legal wording from the Will to hand and want to look into it further.

Thank you but aside from the house and contents there is nothing to leave. I am not part of any will and just hope to have some photos etc from the house when that sad time arrives.

OP posts:
allthemiddlechildrenoftheworld · 13/04/2025 22:50

@ThisBreezySnake the seven year rule might apply and deem this not to be a deprivation of assets.

Original poster
ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 22:51

WhoAreYouTalkingTo · 13/04/2025 22:46

A family member signed her house over to my Dad 20 years ago, expressly to avoid care home fees. She even told the council (she has dementia but didn't when she signed the house over), when having her care assessment and they weren't the least bit interested.

As in they weren't interested in the money from the house or they weren't interested that it had been signed over and went after it?

I mean this is a moot point to me as I've nothing to gain, just didn't want it to hold up GF care assessment.

OP posts:
YourAzureEagle · 13/04/2025 22:53

WhoAreYouTalkingTo · 13/04/2025 22:46

A family member signed her house over to my Dad 20 years ago, expressly to avoid care home fees. She even told the council (she has dementia but didn't when she signed the house over), when having her care assessment and they weren't the least bit interested.

No they wouldn't be, as they would have no legal route available to obtain the house, assuming it was registered in your father's name. Unless someone signed it over or signed a DPA they would have to apply to the high court, no local authority would want to do that, for obvious reasons

PurpleFlower1983 · 13/04/2025 22:55

ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 22:51

As in they weren't interested in the money from the house or they weren't interested that it had been signed over and went after it?

I mean this is a moot point to me as I've nothing to gain, just didn't want it to hold up GF care assessment.

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It won’t hold up any care assessment, it may just make the financial assessment take a bit longer.

Original poster
ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 22:56

PurpleFlower1983 · 13/04/2025 22:55

It won’t hold up any care assessment, it may just make the financial assessment take a bit longer.

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That's good news for GF and I, thank you!

OP posts:
YourAzureEagle · 13/04/2025 22:57

ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 22:51

As in they weren't interested in the money from the house or they weren't interested that it had been signed over and went after it?

I mean this is a moot point to me as I've nothing to gain, just didn't want it to hold up GF care assessment.

Show quote history

Local authorities will game play to try and secure assets, they like to get someone to sign a deferred payment agreement, if they can get a signature on one of those they hope to be able to use it to secure a charge.

What they won't do is go the full hog and take it to court, only very rarely when they are really sure of their ground, because there isn't much case law on it, and if they are ruled against it creates precedents against the somewhat shaky legislation.

If in ThisBreezySnakes case the relative told the council she did it to avoid care fees, then clearly that would give them a case, even 20 years after - if not they wouldn't have a chance of getting anywhere except through scare tactics and trying to get it signed over.

The number of people I come across who have signed away their property, even in situation where they are protected by the care act is amazing.

For example, if husband and wife share the home, wife goes into care, the house is disregarded under the act, it cannot be used as part of the assessment, but I see situations where they have signed a DPA and had a charge placed because someone said sign here.

Diydanny · 13/04/2025 22:58

ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 22:32

Yes he is certainly regretful about a decision that he made trying to do the best for his children who now have essentially abandoned him :(

I understand now that it will be more difficult if I tell SS he is with us. I just hate being dishonest and don't want to drop him off at home unless I know they will come?

Show quote history

Maybe sell the house and use some of the money to rent a more appropriate place with downstairs loo/wet room and to pay for carers from an agency to come in two or three times a day.

minnienono · 13/04/2025 23:00

If you cannot cope you can drive him to a&e and simply tell them he’s fallen and can’t go home. He might be angry with you for doing this but it is the quickest way to get a care assessment because he can’t be sent home without one

Original poster
ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 23:01

YourAzureEagle · 13/04/2025 22:53

No they wouldn't be, as they would have no legal route available to obtain the house, assuming it was registered in your father's name. Unless someone signed it over or signed a DPA they would have to apply to the high court, no local authority would want to do that, for obvious reasons

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All I know is the house was signed over and it is now in my Dad's and Uncles name jointly. I don't know by what legal mechanism it was done but I do know it was done via a solicitor.

OP posts:
YourAzureEagle · 13/04/2025 23:04

ThisBreezySnake · 13/04/2025 23:01

All I know is the house was signed over and it is now in my Dad's and Uncles name jointly. I don't know by what legal mechanism it was done but I do know it was done via a solicitor.

Show quote history

So long as dad and uncle are the only names on the title it would be impossible, given the passage of time for the council to secure a charge on it, as the legal owners are the dad and uncle, and they are not liable for the care fees.

Will they try and get them to sign a DPA and agree to a charge, yep, they sure will, but unless they do, it simply cannot be got after this period of time.

Its a botched IHT saving exercise, that's all.