I'm feeling a bit bullied by the new care home...

[Rhubarblin]

Very quick background: my dad has dementia, diagnosed ages ago now, I think nearly 10 years. He's been on a real journey, struggling at home/various different care homes (we've had quite difficult behaviour from the disease!) and hospital wards, I honestly lose track.

He moved to another new home in Feb, this was entirely arranged by a hospital social worker, I didn't have any input into the move (I don't have poa). They needed to get him out the cottage type hospital he was in very quickly (as beds are like gold dust). The home is OK generally, the care workers are lovely but it's a very remote location (so beautiful grounds but hard to actually get to).

Anyway, the manager (who doesn't come across as lovely!) said that I need to sign 3 different contracts and wanted them done there and then 5 days ago. I'm not a people pleaser and said I'll need to read them first.

I took them home and there's no way I can sign these, I would be financially responsible for all sorts of things (like anything my dad damages-which could definitely happen, a £50 monthly 'activity charge' which my dad wouldn't be able to participate in but is down as mandatory for all residents, any fee increases beyond what my dad can afford and the council would be willing to pay etc).

When I went back in on Friday, I popped into the office and said (politely) I won't be signing this. The manager was very rude and cross and said that I had to. I just continued to say no. He's phoned a couple of times since but I've said I can't sign the contracts. He's extremely pushy and rude, I've just been repeating "I won't be signing anything, you'll need to discuss anything further with the council".

I’m so sorry you’re going through this. It sounds really difficult.
However activity charges are usually like a service charge and split amongst all residents. Not just for participation in activities but things like decorating the home for Christmas and Easter, small presents etc, which everyone could benefit from.
And respectfully, if you don’t cover damages from your FIL, who would you propose does? If it’s the care home then their fees will need to increase as a result and not all residents cause damage.
If you don’t sign up to their contractual terms he will have to move again and other homes are likely to have similar terms.
If you don’t have POA, I’m presuming you’re NOK? If not then whoever has POA should be doing this not you.
Id speak to the Social Worker about this.

And respectfully, if you don’t cover damages from your FIL, who would you propose does?

It's her dad, but why on earth would his damages be her financial responsibility?

Apologies but your dad is responsible as any other tenant would be, and without capacity if there is a dementia diagnosis someone will be managing his finances. That’s why I asked about NOK or POA. Didn’t say it had to be out of the OP’s own finances, but that depends on the damages.

Is you DF being funded in part by the LA? If so, he should have £30+ weekly allowance for his personal needs. I set up a direct debit for £30 a month for my stepfather to cover incidentals. Do you have his state pension paid to you? If so, I suggest you do this. My SF had severe dementia but still participated in lots of activities;

Well who is supposed to cover the damages?

Regarding damages, isn't that what insurance is for?

Wouldn't damages not be paid by you but your Dad. If you have POA sign your Dad's name. Does your dad not have savings. My mum doesn't pay for activities maybe they are included in the price of the home. She pays extras like hair, feet and physio but thats all

Op says she doesn’t have PoA

Who signs the contract depends on who is managing the gentleman's finances. Even if he has no savings, he will still probably have his state pension and any work related pensions he built up coming in each month. If there is no LPA in place (and assuming he lacks capacity to make decisions) the local authority is usually acting as deputy or appointee to pass his income to the home and top it up if needed.

NOK isn't a term that has legal standing.

Do not sign. Of course you are not responsible for either future fees or damages.

My mother was in a care home for many years I was never required to sign any contract like this.

As others have said Social Services allow your father to have a £30 a week personal expenses allowance (usually used for things like toiletries, clothing, newspapers) so that could be used to pay for activities. But as you don't have POA you wont have access to his money, so they would have to ask whoever does (the local authority, presumably).

You are his daughter but you are not responsible for paying anything to anyone.

I'm next of kin (but not the only one). He never sorted the POA - someone told him it wasn't necessary many years ago (eyeroll but here we are). This is why SS chose the home and moved him there (they are responsible (?) for him and managing everything, the word must be deputy or appointee as mentioned above?). In the legal sense, I don't have any 'rights' to make decisions about where he lives. If they made him leave (it's happened before!) the social worker/council would be the ones to find him a new home.

My worry is re me personally becoming responsible for charges, which could be huge. The contracts are really clear and reference whoever signs it is responsible. The activity charge is fairly small but if the fees went up by £1000 a month then it reads as I would be responsible for them (it says they can give x days notice of an increase). He does get benefits and the council part fund/top up the fees and they manage all the finances.

The manager said "the family always signs" but not everyone has family. I think it should be the council (the SW) but I doubt they would sign it all given what it says as they negotiate the fees before placing someone.

Social services placed him in the home without consultation, contact them or tell the home to. You didn’t choose this. Do not sign anything.

Agree don't sign. You don't have lpa and you shouldn't end up liable for your father's care

Is your father a self funder?

you are absolutely correct not to sign and that manager sounds appalling. As his nominated financial deputy, his social worker needs to be informed and they can harangue them for these ridiculous contracts.

To Have accepted him, this is likely to be a dementia specific nursing home, in which case the fees are expected to cover additional damage that residents may cause. What this home wants to do is demand those higher fees and charge families on top. It’s profiteering.

have nothing to do with the manager apart from passing on details of your dad SW.

Himself, or their insurance, obviously. But definitely not OP.

The manager is incorrect here. Families may sign, but only in the instance they have PoA or Deputyship. This needs to be covered by whomever is managing your Dad's finances. Not you. There sounds like there is a misunderstanding somewhere. Either the social worker has implied you are managing the finances or the home hasn't understood the scope of your involvement (or not as the case maybe). Don't sign anything and speak to SS.

You should state that this needs to be signed off by his social worker.

I already said to the manager to speak to the council (i.e. the social team) but he wasn't happy with this.

He's not self funding, the council are paying almost all the fees.

My concern is getting pounced on every time I visit!

Yes, I think it's a home that takes the most complex cases. The fees are absolutely huge.

The manager is very difficult and the office window is next to the front door and the office door is usually open so it's hard to avoid him.

We'd a similar situation and refused to sign.Our relative experienced delirium with every infection and could have caused huge damage at those times so we couldn't possibly have covered any potential damage.
Have a broken record approach and just ignore otherwise

Refuse to sign. On repeat. And complain about the manager if you need to. You don’t have poa, and you didn’t choose the home - the finances are not your responsibility. I would smile and breezily say, nope still not signing, every time you see him..

That's interesting that you've had the same!
There's a huge list of circumstances in which I would have to pay the fees.
I get the impression the manager isn't used to be told 'no'.

I'll keep saying no.
It's such a difficult position when they're looking after someone so vulnerable, though. I don't want dad to have to move again and whilst I'm not saying they (the manager or staff) would hurt him, it's a worry for anyone without a voice.

I do feel for you. It must be a nightmare without poa. My mum, thank god, gave me poa quite early (long before her dementia got really bad). I’m sorry this dick manager is making a difficult situation harder.

You’re doing he right thing by not signing that paperwork.

i would email your DFs social worker repeatedly to report what you’re being asked to do and outline that as you’re not his attorney you cannot and will not be doing this.