MIL care costs

[NoHaudinMaWheest]

As the title says this is about paying care costs for my MIL.

I feel the need to give a fair bit of background in order for the situation to be understood and also to get things clear in my own mind. That will make it quite long so advance warning if you are short of time or capacity.

MIL is now 90. She was widowed 30+ years ago and has lived alone in her own owned home since. Until she was 79 she was pretty independent, driving, doing voluntary work, visiting friends etc.
She then had to have a fairly minor operation to remove a melanoma from her leg. She was assured that it was the type that doesn't spread systematically and that it had all been removed so once her leg had healed she could go back to normal. However she developed a severe reactive depression and stopped eating and drinking and caring for herself. She ended up very ill in hospital. After a period in acute and rehab hospitals she was discharged home, physically fine but still very depressed.
When FIL died she had taken out an insurance policy which would provide care at home and so that was used to hire a live-in carer to persuade her to eat, drink, wash etc. She had quite a lot of psychiatric input but never improved.
A few years later she had a fall which resulted in much reduced mobility. Since then she has lived in one room - bed and commode in the sitting room, just moving to the kitchen for some meals. She doesn't do anything -watch TV, read, knit, sew or engage in conversation. She just worries endlessly and repetitively about eg if the heating is working properly.
She has had the live in carers all this time funded by the insurance policy and her savings. About 5 years ago her savings ran out. BIL has POA and does all her financial stuff as well as managing the carers and practial stuff for the house though no hands on care. He managed to get social services to agree to some financial support and that was enough for things to continue until about 2 years ago.
At that point the care company massively increased their fees which meant that there was a considerable shortfall. Again BIL did the negotiations which meant some increase in SS contributions but there was still not enough so he decided that he and SIL and DH and I would top up - £125 a week for each couple (increased to £150 from this month).
He and DH are adamant that their mother should not go into a home. They feel that as they will ultimately inherit her house they will get their money back.
Some years ago (at least 15) MIL sold a field adjacent to her house. BIL had done quite a lot to negotiate with the council and developers so she got quite a good amount for it, some of which she gave to us and to BIL and SIL. DH and BIL feel that that means that it is only fair for them to fund MIL now.

MIL is not exactly healthy but she doesn't have any life threatening conditions and this situation could go on for many years. DH and I are both in our later 60s and both have disabilities which we manage independently now but may not be able to in the future. In addition we have two children in their 20s with disabilities which require additional support and limit their earning capacity.

I feel that although we may inherit there is no guarantee. If MIL was to require 2 to 1 or overnight care in the future she would have to go into residential care and the house be sold anyway. We are paying this out of income and even if we don't absolutely need it for day to day living now, we have good reason to want to save what we can as well as living reasonably comfortably now.

I really resent being given no choice about this funding. I am not sure that living in isolation like this is really in MIL's best interests. And all this is skewed but the fact that I have never really liked MIL - the feeling is entirely mutual.

DH is quite passive and happy to go along with what BIL says. We live a lot further away and have the DCs to be responsible for while BIL and SIL are a bit younger, in good health and don't have children.

I don't even know what the figures are and am not sure that DH does either. Nor do I know for certain what MIL's will contains.

Saying no would cause a huge family rift but it is what I really want to do.

Any advice welcome (if you have managed to get to the end of this screed).

MIL didn't want to go into a home in the past hence taking out the insurance in the first place. Now I think that although in theory she has capacity she really isn't able to weigh all the pros and cons. She is also very passive and tends to just agree with what BIL says on more complicated matters.

I know care homes vary a lot but they are not all bad. Like calmhappyandhealthy my Mum was forced by medical advice to make that decision for my Dad. Not what either of them wanted but the only real possibilty.

To be fair to my BIL I think he does believe he his acting in MIL's best interests and is not just motivated by the inheritance. I also think he is not being realistic about future possibilities and just how bad his mother's life is at the moment.

cheezncrackers yes that is how I feel. Persuading DH to see it that way is another matter.

caringcarer if money is given as a gift does it still belong to the giver? It was given with no strings attached and was MIL's own decision.

Many children fund their elderly parent's care, regardless of what they will inherit, because they love them and want what is best for them.

You say you don't get on with your MIL and sorry but it shows.

Imo some things are more important than money and you are going to look mean spirited if you decide you won't pay.

Caring for elderly relatives is fraught and imo if you have something that works then it's best sticking to

Can uou afford £600 a month + as I certainly couldn't

Yes nice to inherit a house but makes make sense to sell it and maybe downsize her to a smaller flat near one of you and carry on

Or

Sell and goes into a home that can care for her

@NoHaudinMaWheest
I completely understand you wanting to vent!

@Heretobenosy
I have never seen anyone 'romanticise care homes'. To me it was a practical choice and the best option for my mother. It is by no means posh or upmarket but it is a welcoming pleasant place. The staff are lovely and the care is excellent. She was initially self funding but is now LA funded in her original placement. If in future I have similar care needs, I hope I have the option to go there.

Arran2024 of course I know it looks mean spirited. If MIL had no other resources I would probably feel differently. If I liked her I might feel differently. If I was convinced that this situation is the best possible for her and for everyone else I would certainly feel differently.

I'm wondering what SIL thinks of this situation.

Has anyone seen this will? How do you know she doesn't rip it up and make another one tommrow?

BIL knows something you don't as he's in no doubt over inheritance

I’ve seen plenty of people suggesting care home for people because of loneliness.

I’ve got very different experiences of care homes professionally as well as personally but I’m not here to convince people that there loved ones placements are actually truly awful. I’m sure for some people they’re a great fit. But unless it’s absolutely necessary for someone’s safety I would never recommend a care home

What would happen if you both stop paying?

@Heretobenosy
That isn't 'romanticising' though. It genuinely did mean my mother had company all the time which suits her.

You are right of course that not all care homes are good, but in the OP's case her MIL would be self funding and they could choose any care home they liked, so a better chance of finding the right one. But anyway I'm guessing she'll be staying at home.

Custardslices I talked to SIL about it in the summer. She isn't happy but doesn't feel she has much choice and thinks that the inheritance will make up for it. As she has always been in paid employment and has her own quite good pension, she is more separate from the actual payments. I am assuming that she and BIL have at least partly separate finances.

My only thought is has a charge been put on the house already? As you say SS are providing funding for her live in 1:1 care. If they are providing more than attendance/carer’s allowance does this money have to be paid back, from the estate of the house. Is there actually a full house to inherit?

if your DH says his money is his, then the inheritance will also be his alone then? Ignoring that he has been able to earn his pension due to your role.

Autumnalmists I don't know but don't think so. LA are providing the amount of funding that she would be entitled to given her needs minus the amount she is assessed to pay out of her income. I.e. same as if she had carers coming in daily. Which is why it nowhere near covers live in care.
Don't know what DH will feel about the inheritance if it comes. I have kept my inheritance from my parents separately as otherwise I have very little of my own but I have also used it for joint costs e.g house adaptions we made for Dd.

Ok, two things.

First: She's 90, depressed, socially isolated and housebound with minimal cognitive stimulation or mobility. None of these traits are conducive to living another 5-10 years unless maybe her parents each lived to 110.

Second: She gave you each £60K and the local authority are contributing towards her care?

That would make her a homeowner who deprived herself of assets to fund you at the taxpayer's expense.

If £150 a week is all you're paying, you might want to count yourself lucky that they aren't pursuing you for all of it.

@NoHaudinMaWheest If BIL is so attached to MIL’s/the family home, when she sadly dies will he sell it or buy out DH’s 50% at market rate? Do you know how MIL’s will apportions her estate?

The £60k from the sale of the field should have been invested for MIL, with BIL’s share, £120k would have been invested and would be there to pay the additional costs for 5 years +. My mum gifted me some money, I refused it for ages but as the rest of the family had taken their money I finally agreed. It is ring-fenced in case my Mum needs it. Your DH is right to use this money to fund his Mum’s care.

However, once the £60k is spent then it stops. Your first responsibility is for you and your DH’s future.

I agree with pp that full financial disclosure is appropriate. Having seen how people can be when it comes to money I would be doing due diligence by checking income and expenditure including checking Land Registry for the sold price for the field. Sadly I have seen people be too trusting.

Oh, I thought of a third point.

Regardless of how well you get on with her, this woman birthed and raised him.

A man who has the means to contribute to his mums care, and doesn't, is not someone I would want to know, let alone marry.

Does she need live in care then?

Op

I have to wonder if all this is in your mils best interest. I appreciate she may have capacity.

care homes do have good and bad points, but are also not the only option! Extra care sheltered means carers on site but her own flat. Retirement flat/home. Lots of options. You can also speak to Age U.K. possible get her independent advice/assessment.

some require her house to be sold to pay, but that is part of what happens. Some require SS input unless fully funded.

if independent people (ie SS) are suggesting care home, then why is no one listening? If family want to pay, then they can. I hear you don’t want to, but you can’t stop DP paying.

does mil need 24/7 care? Could this be explored? An assessment 2 yrs ago needs reviewing.

you can or have been clearly able to pay the shortfall, but I agree you should have complete transparency about costs, income, expenditure, bills etc.

relying on the house sale is foolish, nothing is guaranteed and no sight of will is a concern.

sadly it’s so often family who are identified as stealing/ mismanaging/ abusing older people (I believe more than 75% of older abuse is from family and financial abuse is the biggest affecting older people) I’m not saying that’s happening but secrecy and lack of transparency are a concern.

i think it’s fine to raise concerns with dh about the cost. The field income would have lasted 9/10 yrs, was sold 15yrs ago so has already run out? £600pm is a lot to pay out! In my family, you pay what you can afford not just an equal amount! Can you agree a figure that is manageable for you and dh and find a way for her needs to be met that way? Possible selling and moving is an option?
does bil have POA over finances and health? Housing?

get sight of info
agree amount that is maneagble to pay with dh
discuss with bil and sil and dh together.
speak to Age UK

UnhappyAndYouKnowIt the field money was at least 15 years ago so as I understand would not be considered deprivation of assets. MIL had no care needs then. She also thought that she had insurance to cover any that arose. It is unusual that this situation has gone on so long. She has been depressed, unstimulated and isolated for the last 11 years with only minor health deterioration so I feel that she could well live another 5-10 years.

If MIL had no other recourse then I would agree that DH should fund her but she does.

I think a care home is a better option not just for the additional human contact. She is living in one room. She hasn't had a bath or shower for more than 5 years because the facilities are upstairs and she can't get upstairs. She uses a commode because the downstairs toilet is too small for someone who needs assistance.

It is not clear whether she actually needs 24 hour care and I obviously don't know enough to be sure.

Some other points. It is not just a clash of personalities. She has always been a difficult woman who can be pretty nasty. I did my best to get on with her but I think I can fairly say that she undermined that. SIL feels the same so it is not just me. I feel that she has also treated her sons quite badly but they don't see that.
I acknowledge that BIL has the main burden of care but the care agency does most of the organising so his role is mainly taking the carers shopping, organising for any maintenance that needs done on the house and the financial stuff. However it is limiting and SIL is getting fed up with it.

Can you get SS to reassess then? Maybe they’d fund a care home if her needs are now higher. It doesn’t sounds like her house is suitable at all

Not the case with my dad. They told me I could claim attendance allowance but while he was at home with carers coming in, they funded that as he owned his home but didn't have other savings above the limit. It was pretty full on and in the end I never did claim as things progressed and he moved to a care home, with the agreement that those costs would be reclaimed when his house was sold later.

I'd agree with other posters that for all people say 'I'd never put mum or dad in a home' there comes a point where there's no other option, and like the posters who have shared here such as @Calmhappyandhealthy and @DwarfPalmetto my dad's experience was good. The carers were kind and attentive, he got company and good regular meals, and most of all, I didn't have the constant worry of whether he was OK, if he was eating (I lived 2 hours away so couldn't just pop in) or whether, when I rang and he didn't answer, that was because he was ill, or had fallen and was lying somewhere unable to move. I can see why a care home seems like the absolute last resort to some people, but it ensured safety and a level of care for my dad that wasn't by then achievable at home.

fashionqueen her needs haven't really changed since the last assessment two years ago. SS did (I think) feel a care home might be necessary but as she owns the house she would be self funding.

She is claiming Attendance Allowance and has been for years.

I think you need to tease this out into separate strands and consider each one.
MIL physical and mental health- care homes are used to coaxing people to eat, at the moment she is obviously vegetating which will be having a negative impact on mental and physical health. Is staying at home what she still wants?
Your own family health and well being, paying money out is obviously causing you concern and you have needs as a family which means that life could be a bit easier with £100+ pounds a week.
MIL home, for your BIL this is something he both has an emotional attachment too and regards as an asset, but it is not his to decide about.
Future, the costs are likely to rise so committing to paying now is an open ended commitment. And you are no longer earning to replace this money as it is used up. You could have a scenario where you subsidise care at home then she goes into a care home and that takes up all the value of her house.
I can appreciate that your BIL is not easy to say no to but he is not in the same position as you so may not understand the impact on your family.
You need to get clear your personal boundaries on this, then have a talk with your husband to reach, hopefully, a united decision.

But if she owns a house, SS are right to say that it should be used to fund her care, even if that's delayed until a later point when the house has been sold. The brother here sounds like he's just hoping to keep the house himself if he stalls long enough, though after MIL has died this will presumably mean buying out his brother's share. I'm afraid it's simply not fair of him though to expect the state to pick up the tab while he gets the asset.

Does anyone know what MIL has put in her will? I would assume she'd want to split her assets between her children but you never know. I would keep an eye on what the brother has planned for the house if he's really keen on it. If your DH made it clear he would expect to be bought out of his share when the time comes, then it might make his brother realise that it will take a lot to keep the house for himself, so he might reconcile himself to selling sooner rather than later. That would free up money for your MIL'S care.