Appalling behaviour-dressed up as old age-it has to be addressed

[BlueLegume]

Hi all, having followed and contributed to several threads on ‘Elderly Parents’ I want to thank so many of you for helping me look at my/our situation. I won’t name check you just yet but you know who you are. This thread is not to be unpleasant about the elderly who are having a hard time. It is to address a very honest point that my parents have always been difficult. Impossible to discuss anything important with, always known better and having watched them alienate good decent people I am angry that they made no effort in life to do anything other than fun stuff for themselves and now expect me and my siblings to pick up their mess. It seems so many middle aged people have fallen foul of these ‘war babies’ as my mother still refers to her and Dad. Yes I accept they were born at the end of the war and they will have had to live in a post war country. For our mother that is all she talks about. She doesn’t accept they had the boom years post war which she has photo evidence of living it large in the 50s and 60s. She was an incredibly authoritarian mother yet after a few drinks would party all night. Always a case of do as I say not as I do. Now as I approach 60 I am wracked with worry and anxiety because she now ‘can’t cope’. It’s ruining life . I have all the therapy theories and have shared much of it. That said I am mad at the fact I am still dictated to or it feels so by her. Father is in a nursing home after a lot of denial that was what he needed. She will not have any help in the house so it is all falling to us. We are broken. My own family are fed up and rightly so. Selfish as it sounds I did not retire to look after a very unpleasant woman who has never liked me. I appreciate that sounds very bitter.

@Exasperateddonut please take care and keep us updated when you feel you can. I remember one of your posts really resonating with me. I think you said something along the lines of ‘I don't think they will stop until they have completely destroyed me’. It stopped me in my tracks at the time. A real lightbulb moment.

It made me realise that the need to control us is just part of their personality. I visited my mother yesterday and rather than trying to impose my views on her to try and help herself I didn’t. I actively but calmly said that if this is how she chooses to live then she is fine to do so. I also verbalised the fact she is incredibly ’perfomative’ . Her new ‘thing’ is to let the (far too many) house plants wither away. What a metaphor for how she treats or treated people in her life. Once they are no use to her she gives up on them. Zero nurturing.

Please look after yourself and if you do want to come back even for a hug we are all here for you.

It is interesting how many MSM newspapers pick up on topics on Mumsnet. Pity they don’t think a generation of people like us warrant a mention.

A very wise post from @BlueLegume Thank you for verbalising and summing up these type of individuals so well. Their complex personalities mess with our own heads too, adding unnecessary anxieties and the constant pressure of trying to cater for their emotional needs and wants - when they keep intentionally moving the goal posts of their requirements. It’s incredibly stressful trying to second guess their next move, knowing they will inevitably (and possibly pleasurably!) sabotage your very best intentions.

We’re with you totally @Exasperateddonut and I hope that reading, sharing others’ experiences and being able to vent on here has given you some strength. It has definitely helped me, realising that others know exactly what I’m talking about, rather than the, “I wish I had a mother like yours. She’s so lovely and you’re so lucky” I’ve always heard through the years. X

Thanks @JohnPrescottsPyjamas aren’t words powerful! From your lovely post the things that jumped out were ‘sabotage’ ….oh yes that is a life long thing she has done. ‘Second guessing’…..quite. Something as simple as sending a bouquet of flowers for a birthday should be lovely but even choosing them I would have to check in my head what she did and did not approve of. An ever changing list of what was deemed ‘common’ ‘old fashioned’ blah blah blah. Over the years I have spent a small fortune buying the most expensive things greeting cards etc to almost ’buy’ my way out of criticism.

Absolutely to the ‘isn’t your Mum lovely’. My response as I got older used to be ‘yes she can be lovely but there will be a moment you stop dancing to here tune and she will turn on you, be cautious’.

I always have a tendency to try and be super positive about what I have gained having such a complex mother. What I do take away from my experience is that I keep my life incredibly simple. I am not out to be better than anyone, I nurture friends and close relationships without any agenda.

I started this thread as a bit of a vent. I have been blown away by the kindness and respect shown.

I,ve given up on present-giving a long time ago. She gets an Amazon voucher. because nothing was ever suitable anyway so this is less stressful for me.
Her whole life is 'testing' people. Presents are a test, the number of times you phone is a test, whether you show you are thinking about them or considering them is a test. my mother goes from phoning daily to falling off the face of the planet regularly. I will suddenly realise it's been a week and ring her (duty) which is always met with "Oh you remembered I was alive have you" or words to that effect. She keeps score of who rang last and who failed to return her calls, which I find so weird. If you phone someone and they're not available you try again another time. She doesn't, she will refuse to try again until they have returned a call. I refuse to play that game anymore because no amount of passing her latest test resolves anything. She's a deeply unhappy women.

@BlueLegume Yet again I recognise so much of this! I promise I’m not copying you, but we could be talking about exactly the same person.

The mental gymnastics of trying to do the right thing. Similar ‘flower’ story here. I sent her a birthday card with very carefully chosen words inside. Even birthday card choice could become a minefield. Unfortunately, I chose a card with flowers on it - apparently she ‘hated’ cards with flowers on them and she was ‘distraught’ that her own daughter had still sent it ‘intentionally to upset her’ Despite for 50 years previously, I was completely unaware of this illogical dislike! The tears and the tantrums were nuts over a bloody card!

Also agree about their behaviour and our upbringing also impacting adult relationships. I have to admit to not having much patience with needy or clingy people and have developed a bit of a sixth sense about manipulators and controllers, both in friendships and partners.

Thank you also for all your kindness and your wise contributions. My mother died four years ago, but I’ve still been carrying the mental legacy of the damage she has caused. This thread has been so very cathartic and helped unravel the tangled web she left. I’ll never understand why she behaved like she did, in the past I think I thought if I did, our relationship would get better. But now I’m learning just to accept that it wasn’t my fault - she was clearly aways an unhappy, damaged woman and nothing I did or didn’t do would ever change that. X

@reesewithoutaspoon nodding along again!! Phone calls always a minefield so I keep mine to a bare minimum time wise now as there is never anything remotely positive said and no enquiries about me or my family.
@JohnPrescottsPyjamas laughing at the ‘not copying’ 🤣 I have a ‘card story’ from nearly 35 years ago. I had got married in the early part of the year and moved about an hour away. First Mother’s Day after leaving and getting married rolled around so I turned up with the usual, most expensive fancy card, flowers, gift etc. She opened the card and spontaneously started crying, followed by the card being thrown back at me ……….because? ‘How selfish BlueLegume. Typical of you.’ I was baffled. Turns out selfish bugger I am because I had not added my brothers name to the card. My sister apparently still added his name when she sent a card. He has history of not remembering to bring gifts, buying crappy ones with zero thought but she has never ever said a peep to him.

Mental legacy of damage is so apt. I am currently the ‘bad sister’ . Good. I know in my heart I cannot change our mother. I think in some ways this thread has been better than some therapy I have had. The therapy led me to the fact I was not the problem but this helps me see so many decent people, perhaps daughters more than sons, are indeed tangled in this web of manipulative behaviour and clearly as we have never known anything else we have spent a lifetime trying to get approval from our mothers. Hugs to you all. I hope other MN users can get some solace from our shared experiences and whilst they might not be able to see the light realise somethings cannot be ‘fixed’

Oh yes. ‘Love’ was always measured in phone calls, material gifts or cards.

It was always some sort of competition about the number of birthday or Christmas cards she received.

“I got 20 birthdays cards/60 Christmas cards” I’m clearly very popular. How many did you get?

“Uncle Fred spent SO much on my present” but “Aunt Gladys obviously only spent £5” Therefore Fred loves me more, rather than considering financial circumstances or the spirit in which the gift from Gladys was given.

I recognise the duty phone call issue. I had to get myself psyched up to ring because I always knew it would be so draining and I invariably got the sarky comment about the fact I obviously didn’t love her as I didn’t ring every day or that she might have been lying dead for days and that I didn’t care.

She wanted to be told constantly by me that I loved her, but I couldn’t do it because our past history was so bad. I lost track of the number of times I tried to tell her that DH and our DCs don’t go around saying I love you all the time because you know you’re loved by the way someone treats you, respects and cares for you, not the mere words.

Thank you for this thread. It was linked to in a previous post of mine.

I have some neighbours who are well into their 70s and they are beautiful people and I don't bash older people.

My mother can be unreal. I live in a country with a horrifying housing crisis and I am greatful to her to live at home and have a roof over my head. But it's getting very hard now.
There's so many things and I just can't stomach to write it all out now.

My mother has noone else in her life and surely I would bring company and security to the family home. She tolerates me but doesn't respect me. She can be domineering too even thought the home we live in was built by my father and she obtained it through a divorce by me and my siblings paying for their mess. She has no comprehension over the work that we did to keep her at home. She can be so bitter so easily.

@JohnPrescottsPyjamas yes to the 'who spent most'. Despite parroting "it's the thought that counts" it was obvious she only liked high-value presents.
Yet she was bloody awful at gift giving because she didn't know anything about the recipient. After all, she wasn't interested. So she would buy gifts she liked for others.
For years I asked for book tokens, I loved to read, to me you were giving me the gift of spending hours browsing book shops looking for a book... Heaven.
instead, I would get body lotion( I don't use) Nail varnish I couldn't wear (nurse) slippers I never wear, etc.
One year I actually asked why she never got me a book token and she replied "Oh that's a boring present", she literally could not put herself in someone else's shoes and imagine what they would enjoy. her whole world revolved around her.

@canjo hi - sometimes reading how others have handled these complex situations on this thread can be quite empowering.

Sorry not had time to catch up properly but thankyou everyone. And sadly nodding too to the "test" re presents,cards,phonecalls. A total head f##k in which the rules are ever changing and we always lose. So so tiresome and needless. X

The cards thing is so familiar! I do put some thought into buying cards, I wouldn't buy one with a cat on for someone who hates cats, and I always check what's written inside to make sure it's not got something inappropriate or upsetting (eg for someone who has just been bereaved!). But I do not have the time to agonise endlessly over tiny details of the card, and its size or whether it fits whatever outlandish requirements there are now, or what day to post it given the state of the mail these days.

This is one amongst the many things I love about my DH. On my first birthday after we got together for the first time in my life feeling somebody actually knew me and bought me something for my birthday that I want and love and will use!

I would bet on my mother having dementia but so far I got no help whatsoever and I keep getting written off. Her mind is just not well. I have a big list. Her planning and organising is not great. For example she would put the first aid kit into a box and put storage into the box and other stuff on top of the box. You wouldn't want to be bleeding to death because you won't be getting a plaster any time soon. She's always coming up with these little 'life hack' ideas that are ridiculous.

Another time she used a suction cup holder in the shower to hold soap and shower gels but she had it in such a way that you would need to be 6 ft tall to reach it or wear stilts in the shower. It was up so high it made no sense and if you were in the shower doing that, stretching up high it was going to be a hazard for falls. It made no sense.

Currently she moved the position of the hand towel in the bathroom. She used a suction holder over the bath. So you would wash your hand sin the sick and she would expect you to walk across the room to the bath and then stretch your body and arms out to dry your hands. It just makes no sense.

We had a drinks fridge in the sitting room and also used for other things and she attacked it at the weekend and dragged it up the hall to a spare bedroom and she thinks it s a great idea to start holding more food in it. So if you want to cook a meal food may be in the main fridge or up the hall in the spare bedroom. It makes no sense. None.

I keep getting written off for 'memory loss'. Her planning and organisation skills is on the floor.

@Canjo can I ask something? Has your mother’s personality or behaviour changed dramatically? I ask this because we have a sibling who has always had an ‘arms length’ approach to our mother and has been abit blindsided seeing her close up in her natural habitat in the past couple of years.

Shocked at the state of her storage shed - it’s rammed full of loads of stuff……but it always has been so not news. the kids used to ask to play in ‘grannies shop’.

Her inability to process a sentence or information because she doesn’t like what is being said - not because she doesn’t understand. He thinks this is cognitive decline - it may well be but it is how she has always been.

Defiance in the face of anyone suggesting things to help or make life simpler. Yes it may well be she is finding getting older scary BUT she has always been defiant.

Does this make sense?

@BlueLegume s advice is very valid @Canjo

Unfortunately, because my mother’s behaviour was always contrary, stubborn and confrontational, when she did end up with dementia, there was a delay in diagnosis because we assumed it was just her.

I also recognise the deliberate misunderstanding or ignoring of facts because she didn’t like what was being said. Again, can be red flag in cognitive decline, but such a familiar behaviour trait in her that we dismissed it. Lying or stretched credibility wasn’t unusual throughout her life either.

The one thing that did highlight an issue was she started to talk about other people living in the house, that the house belonged to someone else and that the owners regularly talked to her.

Another indicator can be to ask your mother where she lives. I know it sounds very obvious, but my mother confidently gave the address of a house she lived in 60 years previously. Thats when we knew she wasn’t right.

@JohnPrescottsPyjamas totally recognise a distinct change as you mentioned would be a red flag. We’ve just not got any of that at the moment. Just her usual if not exaggerated usual self. Defiant about everything. Put new batteries in a remote on Monday. Brand new from the packet. Tells me today they don’t work so I head over as I’m covering for sis and brother this week. They work fine. Her next barrier/excuse was that she doesn’t want the type of battery as they are “rubbish”. I’m mad I went over but if I hadn’t she would have contacted my sis - recovering from a minor op or brother who has commitments. All attention seeking. All a way to let me know how sub standard I am.

I think my mother always had some poor aspects to her personality. When I was growing up, there were some issues. But now, it's actually worse than ever before.

I remember reading not long ago on a dementia form. Somethintimes with dementia, people can change. They gave an example like someone might keep up with paperwork all their lives and then they neglect it. As an example. But then for other people with dementia, sometimes it's like their own personality but they are now on steroids.

I think this is applying now more to my mother than ever before. There's stuff that's just not making sense at times.

@BlueLegume you are not substandard or sub anything. From what you have posted you are an intelligent and eloquent woman. With a loving husband and kids who cares for her mother. You are amazing not sub standard xx

@Lexy70 thank you. Got in abit of trouble too as I’d had the audacity to have my nails done! I think she thinks we should all be flogging ourselves Opus Dei style to show how much we care. As does our brother. Permanently furrowed brow and sad face. It’s Wednesday and I don’t normally indulge but a g and t may be in order.

@BlueLegume how shameful your nails should be bitten and bleeding from scrubbing her floors!!!

Okay lovely people. I need some advice. So you don’t need to read full thread - Dad been in nursing facility for a year. Mum struggled accepting he needed nursing home care. Mum is an incredibly complex person.
Mum now refusing (she is in the family home with full capacity) to get dressed with various excuses as to why she can’t/won’t.
I sat down with her yesterday for a long chat. Took forever but she admitted she does not like visiting the nursing facility. She admitted she does not like where she is in life. She agreed all the ‘reasons’ she says she cannot get dressed are her way of telling us she cannot go to the home because she doesn’t want to.

We have tried to get her to engage in talking therapy but she refuses to even attend a session. Personally I think that if she could see someone who can give her some techniques in dealing with/accepting reality it might help. Any thoughts????
The bigger problem is that this is Mums personality and always has been. She doesn’t trust anyone unless they have a fancy title. So the staff at the home are treated with contempt even though they are amazing. I have said it before she is very Hyacinth Bucket, very controlling and without Dad to temper her frankly silly behaviour we are in a bit of a mess. I did praise her for being honest but also said we all have to use coping mechanisms to navigate difficult situations. She has just never had to.

I’d appreciate any thoughts.

Does she have to visit? If she doesn't want to go then not much point trying to make her.

Judging by your previous descriptions of her she's now attention seeking by refusing to get dressed.

@EmotionalBlackmail thanks - I said yesterday. ‘If you don’t want to go then don’t’. I saw this as a way of saying she could put that out of her mind and move on if that makes sense?

Absolutely to the attention seeking. Which is why I have also said ‘Mum if you want to wear your dressing gown all day that is fine by me’.

She has always had fixations about trivial things - and I mean always. In the past we have rolled our eyes but her fixations are impacting our lives. She has always been complex but our Dad sort of kept her in check. She has now gone rogue. She has always been demanding and very much ‘I want/don’t want’. Very hard to get her to make sense yet she has full capacity she is and always has been incredibly difficult.

Agree
A lot people don't like visiting/ seeing loved ones being very ill.
I would never judge anyone for that.
And it was very brave of her to be honest.
( it may be better for the staff/ your dad anyway from previous experiences)
Ps glad you had your nails done.
We all need a bit of a lift sometimes- best perfume , best wine - pamper yourself and be your own best friend.
It really recharges the batteries