Narcisstic Mother and Dementia

[Lastknownaddress]

I am possibly coming on here just to quietly scream into Internet ether, or just to process what is happening. Either way I would appreciate any shared experiences or advice.

My M is an out and out narcissist with well known and professionally diagnosed personality traits although at the time was not formally diagnosed as a narcissist per se (this was decades and decades ago and diagnoses were less formalised but she was seeing a psychiatrist at one point).

She is deeply unpleasant and as I was growing up and beyond I desperately tried to compensate. Anyway roll forward 30 years and we have been NC or v LC for over a decade. Life has been much much better since.

However we live close by. Her choice. Not mine. We moved to the village first and went low contact. She decided to move to be near us. 🙄

Through sheer determination and sticking firmly to my boundaries we have managed to co exist, and for the large part for myself and my family to ignore her. And it has been OK but this is largely down to being very determined not to get sucked back into her orbit.

But.

NM is now in her early 80s. Getting more and more frail, and clearly starting to struggle with life. More relevant though is she can no longer mask to outside world what a vile person she is. Over the past year we have been hearing more and more rumblings in our local are of how NMs behaviour is manifesting itself and this week several neighbours contacted us to ask us to step in. And then today one of her friends contacted us out of the blue, to say that she could no longer support NM and it wasn't sustainable for her to be there for her. To clarify it sounds like this friend had been stepping in, doing shopping etc etc. But we didn't even these two individuals knew each other we have been managing the boundaries so carefully.

There is clearly a growing expectation that myself and DH will step in. But the truth is, because of NMs diagnosed personality disorder, she would never accept our help even if we were on speaking terms. Let alone the stress, anxiety and distress it would cause to break our boundaries and provide more support. Equally, it is hugely distressing watching her decline and be so utterly awful to everyone around her. It is like wanting a normal relationship with my mother (although I know logically it will never be, but the emotional pull is strong) and supporting her in her old age, and also knowing what I would be letting myself in for and needing to protect myself and family.

It feels going through all the pain of having to come to terms with her behaviour and making the decision to go NC in the first place.

If anyone has been through anything similar I would love to know your coping mechanisms and how managed the final years. This isn't going to be a quick process and we don't live far enough away to ignore it completely.

If you made it this far... thank you!

I hear you!
It's the gift that keeps on giving.
Do you have any siblings?

Isn't it just @LheureBleue ? No siblings. NM has a bigger family so I am going to rope them in I think and just be very clear about my boundaries. The bigger issue is the neighbours thinking they are doing the right thing dragging us into the cycle of doom. It might work for NM but at huge cost to my family. I mean, of course we will ignore said neighbours politely but it isn't easy and makes us feel like s**t every time. But we can't do any more.

Gawd, it is so exhausting 😭

Call social services, they are responsible not you. They are used to dealing with toxic, dysfunctional families but make it very clear you will not be doing any type of care.
They will decide if she has capacity, needs carers etc. it is not your responsibility.
I was very honest with social services and neighbors that my mother was an abusive narc alcoholic who neglected me as a child, I was a vulnerable, traumatized child, regularly beaten and humiliated. I saw no point sugar coating or lying to save my mums reputation. It shut the neighbors up really fast as they were also sick of being put upon. Don't get involved with the wider family, they probably don't want to help, leave it to the professionals.
Edited to say, people are asking you to step in to save themselves, they don't want to deal with her. Leave them to it, it is their choice if they decide to involve themselves as it is your choice not to. You need to make your reply really pointed not polite so they feel like shit.
One of mums carers called me to say my mum needed me and that I was unkind to be NC, I just said I'm glad you called what is your name, oh yes I have ansafone msgs where my mum says you have stolen her money, jewelry, morphine, clothes and food from her fridge. I will now be phoning the police to report you for elder abuse.....she was mortified, my mum was a compulsive liar. My mum acted like a sweet frail meek old lady, she was a monster.

we have a close relative who lives in our village who is horrible and also diagnosed with narcissism. When my husbands parents were alive we had to keep quiet about our feelings and relationship for her and cover up on how awful and damaging she was to our family. Once they died we changed our approach and were absolutely honest with our neighbours about her actions and behaviours over the decade. When she does something terrible, people sometimes ring us and we say ‘nothing to do with us’, I suggest you call the police or social services. They all know the back story now and know that although she may be a relation she has nothing to do with us.

As @binkie163 says, contact social services and her doctor if you have this information and be very frank with them. You have zero obligation to care for another adult. If your NM has friends doing her shopping now then social services need to do an assessment of her needs and carers could be brought in. Then she’ll be on their radar and you can field any problems straight back to them. Protect your boundaries and your peace.

I had an elderly cousin who had severe mental health issues. When she started calling myself and her poor neighbours at all hours social services got involved and eventually she was admitted to a secure residential facility. Start the ball rolling sooner rather than later 💐

'...carers called me to say my mum needed me and that I was unkind to be NC, I just said I'm glad you called what is your name, oh yes I have ansafone msgs where my mum says...'
@binkie163 that is beautiful! I think I might start telling, too, instead of trying to protect people's feeling and my personal standards.

I hear you

@Lastknownaddress totally feel your pain. Similar situation. Do I have any suggestions. Not really. Every week brings a new problem, which isn’t actually a problem. NM has alienated everyone except me, my sister and my brother. Nothing, absolutely nothing we do is right. Why do we keep going ? FOG…..all we can do is manage our time and try to take care of ourselves . Out of the FOG website is helpful.

I agree with people saying maybe you need to just be honest with neighbours etc about the fact your mother is a narcissist which is why you are low contact with her. I think more people have experience of narcissism than you might think so you will probably get more support & understanding if people understand the situation.
My MIL has strong narcissistic tendencies, though never formally diagnosed because she would never consider she has a problem. But she has created many toxic situations for her children growing up and as adults. Her narcissism was covered up more when she was younger but now in her 80s we all see it clearly and recognise the need to put boundaries in place and protect our own emotional health when dealing with her. If someone told me they had a narcissistic parent they would immediately gain my sympathy.

Thank you to everyone for responding. It helped me get through a tricky weekend.

Currently it is with my NM's sister to have a conversation with her and follow up with social services. I feel like (thanks to the advice here) I have done my bit by alerting the wider family and suggesting they bring in professional support and I can do no more. Boundaries back in place for now.

And yes, you are right. I need to be honest with the neighbours.

And the FOG website is great! Thank you for the suggestion @BlueLegume

Last you've given me a reality check here. My difficult parents moved abroad and then cut contact after I called them out after a particularly awful visit when they were fighting and behaving badly in my home. It's been ten years since contact now and I do miss having wider family. Was ruminating about it last night, feeling lonely.

On the other hand I now see that my fate could have been dealing with all their crap on a daily basis - I'm so glad I'm not.

Wishing you all the best and you must protect yourself and your family from her. There's no way to fix her, sadly

@Lastknownaddress another good resource is www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com hope the link works if not Google Danu Morrigan Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers.

@BlueLegume great resource 'daughters of NM' I also found the adult children of alcoholics even more helpful in that it explained the profound effect it had on me growing up [my mum was a raging narc alcoholic] how it shaped my life, my decisions, my fears and anxieties.

I particularly loved it when my mum in laws neighbours said that we needed to care for her. We had been for about ten years prior to this but hey. You have no legal responsibility to step in and after the shit she put you through no moral one either. I'd be the better person, make a phone call for her tell social services and leave them to it.

Thought I would post a bit of an update. I should have predicted it really. Wider family stepped in briefly. Then almost immediately discovered it was too much like hard work and started throwing it back at me. Cue a long and difficult week where I have been told as her only daughter I am fully and legally responsible for NMs actions, welfare and future care.

I am not. And I know I am not having researched and sought legal advice at the point of going no/low contact. But - despite being very clear with NM and wider family at the point of NC and all its implications - they are denying it ever happened. (Thankfully I still have copies of the letters I sent otherwise i would be feeling very gaslit right now).

So I have written to the GP documenting the neighbours concerns. And the GP has written back saying unless NM gives me consent they can't act on it as they deem her to have mental capacity. And she will never give me consent and I wouldn't want it. Again, already knew this was the position but the almighty bucket load of BS from family quilted me into writing and at least now it's a confirmed position from the GP - no ifs, no buts and no 'what ifs' in the future.

It is in the hands of fate now. But even though my rational brain is OK the whole daughter/mother guilt thing feels pretty horrendous right now. I know this is what separates me from her (she has never felt guilty for anything) but still... it is also the dread of knowing this is unlikely to be the last time this happens and living with the constant niggle of it in the back of your mind.

Really feel for anyone in a similar position and thanks again for all the support. It was the thing that helped me stand firm the most and Mumsnet at its best.

@Lastknownaddress brave of you to post so honestly. NMs are awful as a given but elderly NMs are a new level. Solidarity with you. Please look after yourself. -there is a new recent thread with a poster called @frazzledmummy I think you would be helpful in contributing to. It’s called At my wits end. Difficult elderly mother in denial flaring up any time something is called out 38 replies

This may sound brutal, but it’s rooted in seeing someone close to me almost destroyed by caring for their own NM. Tell your neighbours/mum’s friends that they also need to set limits on what they will do and cannot just hand over to you. Be really clear if you speak to your NM that you will help arrange professional care support (she might be entitled to Attendance Allowance if she has diagnosed long-term health conditions). Otherwise, if disaster strikes, then professionals will have to step in. This may mean your NM becomes a ‘problem’ to others in your area. Your wellbeing matters and, even if you had the best relationship on earth with your mum, I’d still be advising boundaries and seeking professional care support for jobs in the home, shopping and so-on. Helping Hands are pretty good.

Thank you both. Will take a look @frazzledmummy thread later when i have a bit more time. Am also going to book in some time with the GP to look after myself and get bloods checked etc. It has hit me hard this time round (it has come along on top of a lot of other life stuff) and I am so exhausted by it all I need to make sure I am not anaemic again.

Right off to make breakfast for the people in my life that really matter and are currently enjoying their school summer hols!

@Lastknownaddress I hope you take comfort in the fact that your people are protected -by you- and will never have to suffer a relationship with her.
Well done! Have a great day and enjoy 🙂

I'm so sorry for the position you're in (and the past), OP.

I think you might need to go no contact with those in your family who are trying to get you involved by using guilt. You know the truth of your relationship with your mum and have no need to feel guilty

OP, Read this post, again and again and again.. this is spot on.

Social
Services are responsible.

Call them and turn
your phone off.

So I thought I would post a bit of an update, quite frankly because I am at my wits end with the pressure to be the "good, compliant daughter" and don't really know where else to get my thoughts in order.

Over the last few weeks M's condition has declined exponentially. We don't know the cause, but at a minimum it is likely to be Dementia. She has - over the past few months - continued to refuse to put PoA in place, and refused to see her GP about her worsening condition. At times, she has apparently been very argumentative, but she has now reached crisis point and is in hospital and being assessed. To get to the point of a hospital admission, she had carers going in but it was quickly apparent that she wasn't going to cope at home without 24/7 live in care and things quickly escalated.

During this time I agreed with the social care team that they would sort the carers and if there was an emergency they would step in. I made it clear I couldn't be an emergency contact nor could I coordinate care but I would be prepared to support discussions to help Ms long term care be planned in her best interests, and consider putting in appropriate financial measures to help pay for her care.
...
But clearly this isn't good enough. Family members are angry with me for not being the "perfect daughter/carer/dogsbody", seeming to think that despite putting the right arrangements in place, I should drop everything to be there to provide 24 hour personal care. There have been calls to go sit with M at all hours of the day, to get emergency care packages to her, to buy food (we can't afford to do this right now and social care agreed to sort it), do her laundry, clean her house, to get her to appointments I didn't even know existed. And every time I say no I can't, it is another excuse for my family to despise me a little bit more. It is not even that I can't do this some of the time, but the entire expectation seems to be that I will be available and present at the drop of a hat and utterly available to M all of the time. Like all I was born to do is to be there for her in her old age and I need to make a choice between my M or my own kids. There is no recognition that everyone's lives are messy and very few people can just drop everything to deliver care.

Even without my Ms chequered history I simply could do not do this. To even give more than the basic support on a regular basis, I would essentially be sacrificing our lives to support M. If I don't work I won't get paid (freelance) and I need to look after my own family. We are also already supporting my DF who is very very ill, and my increasingly aged PILs. The family are completely oblivious to the fact that the Social Care team are picking this up and that they are taking M's history of MH issues very seriously. For example - DH laid down the law early on about not being in the house with her on my own because she has a history of pulling knives when very stressed. The social care team seem to understand that I can't step in, but this then leads them to contacting the other family members to see if they can support instead which is how they are being dragged in. And because they then volunteer, despite them continually saying they won't and they don't want to, it is like the whole cycle starts again and we are right back at the start.

I can honestly say I have never experienced anything like this before. It is horrendous. The pressure to respond in the moment and the continual bullying is dire. It ranges from being raged at through to resolutely ignored. They won't even acknowledge M had MH issues historically as for the past 10 years she has been comparatively stable (or masking it well). And if I stand my ground, I get blamed for Ms condition. If I step in, I know they will completely step back and I will be left carrying everything on my own like I did during multiple of Ms breakdowns.

Not sure really what the point of this all is really, but it's a mess. I have been trying very hard to give what I can and maintain some low connection with M in recent years but the family are now making it impossible. I am really fed up of being the grown up right now.

Block these people.
All of them.
If they persist in abusing you, contact the police wrt harrassment.