Anyone have a relative in a mcarthey stone? Need advice

[Edinlassy]

As the title says really am in need of some advice from anyone who have experience of a relative living in one of these.

long story short we are reaching a point where they are making noises that my mum is no longer independent enough to live there. As she owns he flat outright I am wondering what happens when they decide she is no longer eligible to live there. How do they force a sale?

many thanks

I couldn’t honestly leave an animal in the conditions she is living in. Her bedroom is unusable she sleeps on a couch that is shit stained from her last incident. But everything is fine and we are all idiots for saying otherwise

Gosh 69? That is really young. if it is an illness that can be treated / improved it wouldn’t seem right to effectively make her homeless imo while she’s unwell. What if she gets better and wants to go back? I think yep personally id pay just a little for some advice and pointers from a solicitor .

I am so sorry you’re in this situation , it all sounds horrendous , with no support too. Take care of yourself.

I suppose she knows that her home is at risk if they can’t do the safety checks? How does she get her shopping?

You don't need to activate the poa otherwise it wouldn't have a point . It's there for when the person doesn't have capacity to make decisions for themselves
You need to get ss to do a best interests meeting and get them to deal with her .

What treatment is she having in hospital? Could something be done when she is at these appointments? Maybe get her sectioned from there? Or could police help if she’s a person at risk? Xxxx

This is a dreadful situation and my heart goes out to you. There will probably be a clause that if she’s a danger to other residents (smoking and stubbing them out on the floor) they can start eviction proceedings. As others have said, get legal advice or walk away (easier said than done, I know)

There definitely is something they can do, it sounds to me like they need to be applying for a 135 warrant if she has previously been sectioned and only allowed home on the basis of accepting carers. A 135 warrant allows them to force entry to her home for the purposes of a mental health act assessment. Unfortunately it does have to have police present to actually enforce the entry which isn't nice but we do lots of them (i'm control room police) with ambulance, AMPHS and then the patient is taken to an MH ward for assessment.

it sounds to me like they are either fobbing you off because the above is time consuming and tricky because there are so few beds or they haven't grasped the severity of the situation. Just on the basis of what you've told us here it sounds like she is a risk to herself.

my experience of SS both personally and professionally is that they don't do anything until you start really playing hard ball so start making their lives difficult.

The team you need to start making yourself a nuisance to will be Adult services. Why was she sectioned before ? Apols if you said already. Does she have a named SW ?

OP this sounds like an awful situation, I'm so sorry you feel so alone in dealing with it. I only know about England, so if you are in the other UK nations this may be wrong, sorry....
If your Mum bought the M&C flat, she will have the contract I assume? This will tell you what M&C will do if she breaches conditions, not allowing essential checks eg of boiler etc likely to be a significant breach. Did you sign anything as a guarantor or to take on any sort of obligation? If not, you could walk away, if you chose to.
The Manager may harangue you to "sort it out" (er actually possibly more her job than yours) but you have tried and cannot do so. Ask her what the next step is at their end? Landlords quite rightly take their obligation to do checks mega seriously. I expect the Manager will escalate to her seniors on Monday if the check doesn't go ahead. What has the Manager done to expedite the checks? The Manager's Manager will have dealt with this issue before and may have a more constructive take, it's not an uncommon situation. Your Mum pays these people's salary!
In terms of the conditions she is living in, does she have a named Social Worker or Care Coordinator from either/or the local Mental Health Trust or Local Council? Has she given permission for them to share information with you? If she has not, this may be why you're feeling fobbed off by the Social Worker. Do you have a name? If so ask the person if they are able to share information with you. If not, they can (and should) still listen to your concerns. Ask if her capacity to make the decision to live in squalor, self neglect and jeopardise her accommodation has been recently assessed? Ask for them to make enquiries under S42 Care Act (Safeguarding).
I think your best bet to getting the NHS/Social care to help is via the manager of the hospital treatment service where your Mum goes 3x per week. I have to say this is quite an unusual provision these days - she definitely goes there does she? Explain your concerns to the Manager, particularly the self neglect, refusing to let anyone in, squalor. Do they know she is having episodes of faecal incontinence? Is excessive alcohol use a factor?
If none of this works, if you are defined in the Mental Health Act 1983 as your Mum's 'Nearest Relative' (if you are either her eldest child or provide enough input or oversight that an AMPH finds you are providing care to her) you can ask for a Mental Health Act Assessment (MHAA) to see if she needs to be "sectioned" for assessment or treatment. Contact your Mum's local council (the Scheme Manager or whatever the title is of the M&S person) can tell you which Council if you don't know) and as to speak to the Duty Approved Mental Health Professional. They are not obliged to do a MHAA but they should explain their reasons in writing to you if they do not. They will make their own enquiries and will help you navigate this situation. If you are the Nearest Relative (it's not the same as NOK, it's the person the Mental Health Act says it is, not necessarily the person who appears most logical!)
OP if your Mum has given you a Lasting Power of Attorney that has been sent to and returned as approved by the Court of Protection you don't need any further permission from her to act on it. If it's Property and Finances you could legitimately obtain a key and let the check people in if you think she lacks capacity to make or enact the decision for the checks to be done and if his is in her Best Interests.
Good luck OP, I wish you and your Mum the best.

@whinginglittlefucker thank you so much for all this advice and to all of you who have responded.

She is on dialysis 3 times a week and yes definitely goes she has been on it for 18 years.

last year she took delerium and was admitted to hospital for 7 weeks. In the first week she was attempting to discharge herself and was in a bad state so the only way they could keep her in was to section her so that’s what happened. Her discharge was on the condition she accepted the carer package which she did to get out but as I said won’t now let them in her house.

she is an amputee and has had a stroke along with her other issues and literally has no other family other than myself and my kids and husband.

The manager has said she will be contacting her Manager on Monday for the next steps. It’s very difficult to actually get in her house as she barricades the door with a spare wheelchair there is no way in other than that as it’s a flat. I begged her to stop doing this as if she needs help nobody could get in to her she just laughs.

alcohol is not a factor, she barely eats or drinks on her last hospital admission she was under 5 stone.

Sorry for all the drip feed. I just feel like I have reached my rock bottom and can’t cope with her anymore. She will do absolutely nothing to help herself and expects me to just pick up the pieces all the time. I have stepped back hoping if I stopped enabling her she would accept the help but she seems happy to live in filth.

I can’t do it anymore I just can’t. I feel physically ill in her presence she is just the most awful person I should have walked away years ago but I am utterly stuck now. I don’t want the responsibility for her. I know this makes me sound terrible but there has been so so much bad stuff she has done I hate that she is even in our lives. My kids hate being around her my husband despises her and I’m stuck in the middle of it all

This is horrendous for you. Could you allow entry to the flat when she is at dialysis?

I don’t have a key but the manager does but she has put a sign on her door saying not to enter her flat as there has been thefts and the police are coming to take fingerprints. They want her permission to enter but I guess it will blow up come
monday

She doesn't need to be in your life anymore OP. You can walk away. It's ok to do so.

Maybe just let what’s going to happen , happen .She sounds like she’ll be sectioned again and as much as you’ve tried ,there’s not much you can do about it. There’s no point you having a mental breakdown too.

I think I would be having a frank conversation with MS ( as well as following up all, of the great information posted regarding Social Care.

I would be telling MS that I fully support any actions that they legally need to take and that you are not responsible. Work with them. If she is homeless SC will have to sort.

I can’t thank all of you enough for the support and advice. I think I have a plan of action now a lot will depend on what MS do on Monday but thanks to you all I have a road ahead now I just couldn’t see the wood for the trees after they called me in went into panic mode. Thank you all

I know this makes me sound terrible
@Edinlassy nothing that you have said here makes you sound terrible.
You are clearly a good decent person trying to do the right thing in a terrible situation, dealing with a woman who's behavior is beyond terrible and who is extremely dysfunctional.
There is nothing that you can do to improve the situation. McCarthy & stone have had all her money, let them deal with it.

I’m not sure what you mean by refusing to let you activate the POA. If you have poa then it comes into force, decision by decision I think, if she lacks capacity to make that decision, and it does sound like she lacks capacity to make certain decisions but relevant healthcare professionals can assess this. It does sound like she needs to be somewhere else at least for a while which would allow you to clean up, assuming you are able/willing to help. I had MIL and DM in Mc and S and similar. As PPs have said flats are leasehold so you don’t have as much control as freehold. Some Mc and S are now allowing renting which probably makes more sense as it can be really difficult to sell if no longer suitable. You might find you can rent it out?? Or sell if her long term needs are unlikely to improve? Difficult situation and they often sell for less than they were bought for if bought new.

Sounds horrendous. Others have mentioned NHS/social services.

I used to work in a council environmental health department. We had powers to go into people's homes (by force if necessary) if they were filthy/hazardous (under section 83 of the Public Health Act 1936 if I remember correctly) and get the premises cleaned up. We were typically called in by neighbours because of the smell. We worked closely with NHS/social services to support the resident as they were always elderly/vulnerable. Social services also had a 'blitz squad' that could clean up homes

If she owns the flat then realistically it will be very difficult for them to force her out.

I think you need to say very clearly to your husband that you'd appreciate his support, not pressure to go against your own best judgement.

You stepped back to allow your Mum to reach a point where she will get the support she actually needs. And that's working. The manager and the GP and the mental health team and social services aren't emotionally involved and they have actual legal powers to intervene; so let them. When they call you, just say 'Oh dear, she won't let me near her I'm afraid. What are you planning to do next?' And whatever they say, answer, 'I'm sure that's well worth a try, go ahead'. That's all you need to do.

This is not fixable by you, so don't try. If things get bad enough, it may actually result in some kind of permanent support structure.

Firstly thinking of you going through this tough situation.

Secondly, the MS contracts are pretty tight, I've been through them when some of my congregation who live in them have had issues. But I'd also add that most leasehold properties have rules and even with freehold you can be made to sort out issues that are causing issues for your neighbours.

Thirdly I do think that at best you can buy her time before she needs to move but from what you have written social services need to step in and section her to more appropriate living facilities, sad but it's for the better good (you then need to clean up her apartment and get it onto the market but you will need to go the the court of protection if she hasn't got a power of attorney signed)

I know its easy to say but you really need to step away. If you do SS will have to do something eventually. They will probably contact you first but if you say you won't get involved they will sort something out.
It will eb better for her in the long term and for you as well.
Please try and get free from the obligation and look after yourself

As a person who has dealt with a similar situation, the best advice I can give you is to refuse to take responsibility.
You have to be hard line, clear that you are not dealing for your own health.
Only then will the relevant authorities actually deal with what needs to be done.
Take care of yourself x.