MCCarthy Stone- what's your view?

[Flyhigher]

Elderly parents in law thinking of a McCarthy Stone place. What do you think?

Is it good or bad? Are they financially worth it?
Do you lose money?

Yes, the estate pays. There’s no mechanism for forcing relatives to pay, though I’m sure they keep sending bills!

But the problem is security of tenure, isn’t it. Because in a private rented property there isn’t any - either in terms of duration or rent. The last thing I want to be thinking about in my dotage is having to move because the landlord wants me out, or because I think the rent is extortionate.

@Tryingtokeepgoing suprisingly there are actually quite a few private schemes out there with long term secured tenancies - obviously the rent isn’t guaranteed to stay the same but neither is it in Housing association etc - as they are owned by companies and not individuals it’s bit different, as their model is built around ‘built to rent’ - here’s an example one - ( nice area too)

https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/161005283

My Mum spent her last 5 years in one. It was an old block so her 1 bed flat cost about 60,000. She loved living there. I couldn't comment on service charges as my brother did the finances, I did the cooking and cleaning. We sold the flat fairly quickly but probably made a loss, as in sold it for the same price it cost. Financially probably didn't make sense but Mum, who was in early stages of dementia, loved it. Made loads of friends, always out at one social event or another. She was safe and people watched out for her. I plan on moving in the same block when the time comes.

What is the alternative though. Parent had carers in once a week and very average they were. I was 100’s of miles away. Elderly parents muddle on through but actually they don’t. They pester the life out of neighbours, relatives, friends- just anyone who can help and support them. Parent was calling and calling me about very little because they were on their own and quite frankly scared and lent on anyone they could. I was the only sibling in the UK.

@Greebosmum you can’t ask for more than that really -

My sister and I both lived locally to our mother who had dementia. We both went to see her every day, took her out, did her shopping, got her prescriptions, paid her papers, organised house maintenance and repairs. She did her own cooking and cleaning and didn’t need carers etc. We thought we had it covered. What we didn’t know was that she was constantly pestering the neighbours, day and night. Knocking on their doors asking how to turn on the cooker, how to operate the tv remote, how to turn on her central heating, she’d go to one of them if her electrics tripped etc. We know nothing of that. She presented to us as if she was capable and competent but she wasn’t. It was only a chance meeting with one of the neighbours after she lost her house keys going into the garden that the neighbour phoned us and afterwards I went round for a chat to thank the neighbour for looking after her whilst we got there that neighbour told us how bad she was - the other neighbours were all aware of her and helping her, and didn’t know that we didn’t know how bad she’d got. She never asked us or phoned us for that kind of thing although she’d phone us. A few times a day for other things. Really weird how she compartmentalised different things! Once we knew we went more but she’d still do it, but at least we’d established better communication with the neighbours and we started turning on the cooker and tv for her when we were there - even though she’d forgotten she didn’t know how todo it - she’d say she knew and if we asked her to do it, she couldn’t. She really should have been in supported living a few years sooner but she refused as she couldn’t remember she needed so much help and was convinced she was managing fine on her own. I think people need to be looking ahead more and moving into over 55 complexes a lot sooner for their own sakes, whether family close by or not. I’ll be doing it long before I “need” to do it.

My MIL moved into a M&S one, my parents moved into one where the residents had taken over the leasehold and managed it (fine while the retired accountant was fit enough to run the committee, it all got a bit chaotic after that).

the M&S one is yes, depleting her estate- but the nursing home her late DH was in was more expensive. Yes she grumbles at the service charges but she has been extremely happy there for almost 10yrs. Lots of her local friends have moved in and it’s a real community. She could take her little old dog with her, after he died she wasn’t allowed a new dog, but new people move in and she gets to dog sit for them. Win win. The residents play bridge, they have movie nights, they can book out one of the reception rooms for family events like big birthdays. they organise little trips and mini breaks amongst themselves.

during the lockdowns they were really well looked after, staff making sure people had food etc.

the whole family is really impressed with the quality of life she has - and if everything is spent by the time she dies then 🤷🏼‍♀️. It’s her money.

Well of course because they're not care homes. Thats comparing apples and oranges.

The last two posts are spot on.

Bad - are you me?? I think my Mum knew exactly what she was doing tbh. The fact that she didnt tell me about approaching the neighbours indicates she knew.

I was slaughtered on a previous thread regarding getting her to move into a retirement complex. Was told I was selfish and I should let her be. One person even suggested I move nearer to her. Carers were the answer (I was told) and when the 'event' happened, fall down the stairs etc I needed to address it then.

Thing is that Mum could have falled down the stairs, not been able to call for help and the carer only came in once a week because Mum was insistent that more than that wasnt the necessary. I and my siblings could not have lived with that guilt and what a terrible way to pass away. I am not sure the carer did very much bar standing by Mum when she had her weekly shower.

I also think people are moving in far too late 85+ and the ladies I got to know were always complaining that they were fine where they were living previously. I did often challenge them and say if they were why would their children want them to move. One women stalked off when I gently asked her. Always blanked me when I saw her from then on.

Yes, they are expensive, yes very often they are hard to sell but quite honestly dont blooming let them buy one brand new. In the end Mum didnt really know whether it was rented or owned. They werent allowed to turf her out unless she broke the tenancy rules. This home also were rather flexible on people who clearly had mild dementia but had to step in when one lady used to knock on other people's doors late at night or a women who wanted to move her OH in who had serious dementia. She claimed that she would look after him and he wouldnt be any trouble. They wouldnt approve the tenancy and quite rightly.

@Tracker1234 yep - it’s why we kept bringing the subject up to my FIL once he hit 82 and was on his own - his house was totally unsuitable, sod all facilities in the area, needed to drive everywhere, stairs, huge garden, and 150 miles away and a 4 hour each way trip for us at best , no local relatives. Anyway eventually he accepted it was getting to a point where it was now or never but was still fussy with his criteria, so bought a really nice 3 bed bungalow with garage and moderate garden in good order12 miles from us in Frome ( very funky) everything within 5 minutes and can walk to town through a very pretty walk - seems to be really enjoying it too - usually does his morning check in with me sat in a cafe with his paper!! He also has lovely friendly interesting neighbours . I think the biggest issue was getting everything set up, internet, utilities, mail etc as he has no patience with any incompetence in ‘services’ these days and gets frustrated. I would def say to anyone please think about this late 70s and the pressure on family if you dig heels in about staying in very unsuitable places unless you can afford constant paid help and taxis etc

Well yes, but then a hotel is different to a flat, as is a cruise ship. And as they have also been compared to the cost of an assisted living flat I don't see what the issue is :)

The reality is, in the example provided to which I was responding, the cost / week of a McCarthy Stone flat (framed as a huge loss) was around 2/3rds that of a decent care home. That seems fair to me. And a price I'd happily pay at that stage of my life, if nothing else to avoid council or HA run accomodation!!

You cannot live on a cuise ship realistically if the time has come to go into assisted living. Who would look after you?

Personally I think its extremely selfish for older people to in some cases completely dominate their grown up childrens lives. Its almost as if they dont care and put themselves first all the time. My phone number was given out to almost half of the county by Mum. I was working full time and taking these calls often from medical professionals were a pain in the bottom. They wouldnt let go and god help you if you missed the call. You could never call them back.

What do you think the alternative was ?

You don’t buy them as an investment.

You buy them for a lifestyle and support arrangement, with a hope that it enables you to live as close as to a manner you’d like to for as long as possible.

So, financially theyre rarely great. But they are well set up to enable living there for longer. Particularly retirement living plus ones. For a relative, (who’s now in a care home) I reckon that moving there ultimately meant that moved to care home 4-5 years later than would have done if were still in their ‘normal’ house. (And had quite a few years before that living there with an easier life and better social
life than if had been in previous home).

I commented much earlier in the thread I think (it's on my "I'm on" list) but I can't get over why these flats are such a problem to sell when the population is ageing. You'd think they'd always be in demand?

But as they aren't, then the building of new complexes needs to stop!

Or maybe the flats that just aren't selling could be bought by Housing Associations for carers to live in at low rent, meaning that the complex has some on-site carers and thus making it possible for some residents to stay on before having to move to a care home.

Sorry - I've explained that really badly. Keep some flats in the complex available for live-in carers who pay low rent.

I think you have summed it up correctly. No one forces you to buy brand new, when realistically you are far too old to buy a place. If you sell your old house and have the money why not and all those saying that you can go into a government run one?? The one near me is known to be a dumping ground for people with dementia who really should be in a care home but the 'government' has decided to put these elderly people in this complex presumably because its cheaper.

I pass the lounge/dinging room 5-6 times a week. The people are just sitting slumped in their chairs and it was completely different from Mum's old place.

I am extremely fussy and quite honestly for the year Mum was there it did her a lot of good.

I think the reason they are tricky to sell to others is:

1. If people buy brand new and then family are forced to sell 1-2 years later they wont see a profit. New builds are always more expensive than buying second hand.
2. Older people who want to stay in their own homes will dig their heels in and the whole buying process will take longer and longer because actually they dont want to move anyway.
3. The older person could end up dying or having to go into a care home
4. The market for these apartments are very small. Over 70 etc
5. Older people are often deluded as to what their own property is worth which ensures that it wont sell quickly (which perhaps is what they wanted all along!)
6. Certainly my parent and other friends parents wont accept that they need to downsize. They might nod and smile but wont actually do anything to keep the sale going.

Mum was in a Retirement Living Plus one and her service charge was included in her rent.

@Tracker1234

You cannot live on a cruise ship realistically if the time has come to go into assisted living. Who would look after you?

Depends on your needs and abilities really, doesn't it. Elderly people don't all age at the same rate and their "care" needs don't all progress in the same way.

"Looking after you" for a lot of people will simply mean not having to deal with "life admin" like shopping, cleaning, laundry, making meals, etc. - they may be perfectly happy/capable of personal care etc. Living in a hotel or on a cruise shop means that you can tootle around doing your own thing, but not having to worry about washing/ironing your clothes/bedding, not having to cook your own breakfast or evening meal, not having to sort out a gardener or cleaner, having a social life amongst other elderly people "living" in the same hotel/cruise etc.

It's really only personal care that a hotel or cruise couldn't provide, i.e. help with dressing, washing, toileting, etc., but neither would "assisted" living either, unless you paid for personal carers to come in, which is nothing to do with the assisted living home.

Obviously, dementia sufferers are a completely different matter, but again, "normal" assisted living probably wouldn't be suitable either as their care needs would be different and higher than residents without dementia. But dementia sufferers wouldn't be able to live in hotels nor cruise ships either.

@Badbadbunny yes - as per my earlier post about my 85 year old FIL - he doesn’t need any ‘looking after ‘at the moment’ and all he really needs is a weekly visit where we go out for lunch and an hour or two chatting and walk with us. His brother is 88 and similar - not a carer in sight ‘at the moment’. - as FIL says he will cross that bridge when needed but he’s very realistic and thoroughly expects to pay for outside help at some point

The brand new ones are marketed to look very inviting - fresh flowers on display, nice furniture in the show home. The marketing images feature “active retired” people enjoying a glass of wine together when the reality is those people would still be working and enjoying living in their house, and the people looking to move in are 20 years older than this.

Buying secondhand could mean potentially having to redo decor and/or carpets depending on how long it had been used for previously. Maybe even as much as replacement bathroom or kitchen. That means work and cost to organise. These tend to look a bit sad in the sale photos, tired decor, old armchairs, maybe a hospital type bed. They’re not selling an enviable lifestyle to potential purchasers, even though it’s probably a more realistic one!

That's why you move in when you're younger and "don't need" to be there, so that you can update the flat to your preferences and enjoy a "normal" life, potentially, yes, still working, still holidaying, etc., and maybe get a decade or two of living without the stresses/hassles of owning a house (with maintenance, gardening, etc), before you actually need to wind down to thinking about carers, etc. They're really not places you move into once you need to be in a place like that or need care etc - by that time, you're a bit late to be doing refurbs etc., not to mention too old to actually deal with selling a house, buying a flat, moving, etc. It's why most are marketed at over 55s! 55-65 is probably the optimum time to buy one, not 75-85!

Agreed. I have no family and I intend to move to a retirement property by 60 at the very latest. I don't suppose it will fully address all the challenges I will face, but at least I will have time to make a few connections and hopefully it will help with loneliness.

Mum's flat has been rented four times. Its now been rented again and they are very strict about giving it back professionally cleaned. They did charge for a mark under the mat by front door when she moved out but it was very very clean and lightly used imho!

Also although you need to give 2 months notice to leave they did say if they rented it during that time (she was in hospital/care home by then) they wouldnt charge me the 2 months notice. In the end they had a lot of messing around by people and the target market for these properties are not known for moving quickly so it didnt happen. I was told one of the issues is that if you have owned your own house you need some persuading to then rent something. Couple that with the age of some of the people looking to make a move and it was never going to happen quickly.

I guess we're all different ... but I'm 62 and just training in a new profession as I have to work until 67 and would like to work for maybe another 5 years after that!

All the 55 year olds I know are full-time employed and living in family houses with either teenagers or young returning adults living at home.

There's no way, even as a single person, I'd go and live in a retirement complex when I'd be 20 years younger than the average resident.