So bloody exhausted waiting for someone to die 2

[StiffyByngsDogBartholomew]

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/elderly_parents/4866628-so-bloody-exhausted-waiting-for-someone-to-die?page=1
Carrying on from our original discussion

And re the POA point above.

It's considerably easier being POA for someone who has already sorted out their paperwork, decluttered and sold their house, simplified bank accounts into one or two and is now living in a care home with no utility bills than it is for someone owning a dilapidated house with bills to pay, garden to maintain, carers coming in and out, vast amounts of stuff around and many different savings accounts with small amounts of money in because they were chasing interest rates and never closed the account afterwards!

Yes, my DM was terrible with paperwork, but was always organised because she had a great memory. It's been a huge task to get all her paperwork sorted because she just stuffed things in envelopes in random drawers - all her life, not just due to dementia! While previously she would have remembered what drawer she stuffed, now she's denying any knowledge of the document in the first place.

Bags and bags of old photos and documents which delight my genealogical side though, and have been gradually going through, scanning and writing on the back who the people are so they are available for future generations.

@EmotionalBlackmail, @Valleyofthedollymix , @funnelfan I'm in the caring and childless gang.
And I am in a support group for childless women. You have hit on a huge issue.
To a certain extent, rigorous pre-planning can be helpful. Practically, and emotionally.
However. I have spent most of this week holding my mum's hand. Reassuring her that the morphine-induced hallucinations are just hallucinations. Telling her that I love her.
Who will do that for me/us?
That's not something you can plan your way out of. Yes, I consider taking my life when my time comes. No, I'm not sure I would have the courage to do it.

However. I have spent most of this week holding my mum's hand. Reassuring her that the morphine-induced hallucinations are just hallucinations. Telling her that I love her.
Who will do that for me/us?
Well, that's a question that is at the heart of much of my anxiety around what I do for my mum, knowing that while I'm planning to be able to afford to check into an appropriate home at the right time, who will actually care about me and miss me when I'm gone. I can only hope that I get a kind nurse who holds my hand like when my dad died in the middle of the night in hospital and we weren't there.

I don't think people who have children are immune to this - if I wasn't around and mum was reliant on DB alone then she probably wouldn't be managing at home at all given he works abroad. And we read enough on other MN threads about broken parent/child relationships. But having a child(ren) and being a basically decent person greatly increases your chances of someone holding your hand at the end.

I'm so sorry if I've upset anyone with this question, I can see it must be upsetting when you're doing so much and start to reflect on your own old age. I know that I've been thinking about what I want (and don't want) much more going through this with my parents.

I wasn't holding my dad's hand at the end, that was the lovely live-in carer. To be honest, she did a lot better job than I'd have done as I'd have been flapping, googling 'should I call 999' and crying a lot. And unless I'd have been living there, we could never have known it was the end because frankly it was astounding he lived as long as he did.

My parents did downsize from a vast house in the country to a merely large one in the city 15 years ago so that showed foresight. But they never accepted frailty and mortality until the point at which they were far to incapacitated to do all the sensible things that people have mentioned (finances, manageable homes, Swedish death cleaning). It took my poor brother years to untangle the bank accounts and they could have been far smarter with their financial planning to maximise money for care.

What I'm trying to tell myself is that I need to act like someone who doesn't have children. I didn't have them to look after me and I don't want their memories of me to be all the shit - the driver's licences, the call centres about sky boxes and bank accounts, the awkward conversations around living wills and end-of-life care.

This was prompted by someone up thread talking about Singapore and China's policy efforts to get children to care for elderly parents. I do think there is a role for state intervention, but it should be directed at elderly people looking after themselves not at their kids. When you get a pension, you should be directed to a list of other things that should be happening - POAs, advanced care directives, suggested housing options, things to think about even if only theoretically.

And I've said it before - DNACPR should be opt out rather than opt in over a certain age.

This was prompted by someone up thread talking about Singapore and China's policy efforts to get children to care for elderly parents. I do think there is a role for state intervention, but it should be directed at elderly people looking after themselves not at their kids. When you get a pension, you should be directed to a list of other things that should be happening - POAs, advanced care directives, suggested housing options, things to think about even if only theoretically.

I think that could be a really good idea. A meeting with some sort of social worker type person on retirement to go through all the end of life planning sorting out. I bet it would save money for the state in the long run (and stress for the family). Also, if it was done on retirement then likely for most it would come before ill heath sets in and would be an easier conversation to have.

I first heard about swedish death clean on mumsnet, brilliant idea. I started decluttering bit by bit ever since, selling valuable items, may buy a RV/campervan. I don't have children [hideous childhood] I have big house in countryside and land, I'm already finding several acres of garden too much in my 60's. Purchased a ground floor flat near town, everything within a mile radius including Dr and hospital, ready to move in when the time comes. I hope by then my hearing will be bad and I won't notice the town noise!
A year ago I tried to have the talk with parents in their 90's about paperwork, they refused, ended in huge argument. The shit hit the fan in November when my mum died and my dad had no idea about anything [yep I told you so] I am uber organized I just can't believe how irresponsible oldies are leaving an absolute shit show for others to deal with not to mention organizing care.
I have friends who didn't make it to 60 and friends who have no savings or plan b for old age but believe the state will look after them. It's hard to plan for the unexpected. I am as future proofed as I can be and hope for another 20+ years with mobility and marbles. Anything left will go to my 2 nieces or to pay for my care or ticket to dignitas. My only real fear of very old age is unbearable pain, that I couldn't cope with.

@EmotionalBlackmail @Valleyofthedollymix @funnelfan

I'm also part of the childless and caring gang.

Although I have a husband he's pretty useless and not very supportive. My extended family lives abroad so aren't able to do anything although I sometimes think a phone call or email would help. I have a lovely half sister ( same Dad different Mum) who tries to be nice but I don't want to burden her as she has her own problems and we only found each other two years ago.

I try to look after my health - don't smoke or drink, eat healthy food , am not overweight, and go to the gym 3-4 times a week. My fitness is important to me as I don't want to be a burden on others or the NHS. However I do wonder if all this health stuff is worth it. I don't want to be like my Mum - a healthy person with Alzheimer's who'll live for decades because I have no other co morbidities which will kill me off.

I hate the caring burden and don't even get me started on the POA stuff which is another poisoned chalice.

I’m putting thought to this because I don’t want to rely on children. It’s the little things that are difficult, eg changing light bulbs when I’m shaky on a ladder. I don’t want to lose my independence and autonomy over a light bulb!

And I've said it before - DNACPR should be opt out rather than opt in over a certain age. That’s dangerous. It contributes to a belief that the elderly are dispensable, and can easily be extended to other things - eg in the first weeks of Covid when it was made clear that hospital treatment would be reserved “for those most likely to benefit”, age being a large factor in whether you were deemed likely to benefit?

In practice, I’ve been told that it’s very unlikely they’d do CPR on someone very old and frail.

I disagree - to argue that making it opt-out is dismissing the lives of the elderly contributes to the idea that CPR is a good idea and works like it does on the TV, not that it's a very dangerous and brutal procedure. I think also that many people (not you) conflate a DNACPR with withdrawing all treatment, a sort of 'oh they can't be bothered to revive old people or treat them at all'.

I think it might prompt wider discussions around living wills and what medical interventions someone might want earlier, when it's more theoretical than imminent.

Although actually I do believe that the lives of the elderly are a lower priority than younger people, in the same way that my life as a 50 something is worth less than my children's. I've had more of it and they get get more QALYs if they can be saved. I was a bit perplexed by Michael Rosen and Joan Bakewell arguing in Covid that of course all lives are equal and all deaths equally tragic. I'm sorry if I'm callous but a 90-year-old dying with dementia is not a tragedy.

Or actually any 90-year-old to be frank. I didn't think it was sad that the Queen died, so much as the final end to a long life well lived.

It's possible I won't feel like this when I'm old, but I don't think it's unreasonable to use 'most likely to benefit', partly based on age, as a pro or con for medical interventions. It's very natural to protect the young over the old where a choice has to be made - like women and children into lifeboats first.

I'd put myself in danger without a thought to protect my DC. I most definitely wouldn't for my mum.

@Valleyofthedollymix
Absolutely agree and I don't think it's callous in the slightest. All of us have to die so it's not death in and of itself that is a 'tragedy'. It's sad (or not?!) for relatives and friends, but it's a fundamental part of human existence.
We have a very odd view of death I think in the modern world.

We have a very odd view of death I think in the modern world

To the extent that many people can't even say the word, and prefer to say "passed away" (or just "passed") rather than "died".

the other day I had to send officers to attend the "sudden and unexpected death" of a 101 year old.
I mean, really ? Sudden ? Unexpected?

I remember about 10 years ago MIL was most indignant that FILs consultant had changed one of his meds. They were convinced that he'd been put on something that was cheaper just because he was old even though the consultant had explained it wasn't good to be on that med for too long as it loses effectiveness and it's normally swapped for another after 2 years. 2 minutes on Google confirmed what the consultant had said and O showed her but she wasn't having it. As far as they were both concerned it was definitely because he wasn't worth bothering with due to his age (mid 70s then). When you think about how much NHS resource each of them used over the next 10 years it was patently not true.

But then spend our evenings being entertained by murders, stabbings,shootings, forensics, post mortems…..

Being in the sandwich generation, my personal experience is that the NHS puts vast resources into my mum's needs.
On the other hand, the waiting list for child mental health support is 3 years.
I think that's one of the reasons (apart from just being exhausted) that I'm so angry. I know it's not my poor mums fault and she wouldn't want to be living like this and 'causing bother' but the level of input for someone in their 90s and clearly dying versus a 15 year old just seems insane to me.

Indeed. Young people are committing suicide at frightening rates, partly due to lack of any early intervention. In the grand scheme of things a bit of cahms therapy is cheap.
Compare with 83 year old Frida with dementia and limited mobility which means she has 4 carers a day, endless gp and nurse appointments, countless expensive pills, falls constantly requiring ambulance calls, hospital beds, rehab. Not to mention calling 999 continuously because she's confused and can't remember she called 3 minutes ago. Tying up call handlers in the police for hours on her bad days because we can't block her calls.

the nhs rations resources but why do they go to people at the end of life rather than the beginning ?

@SeriouslyAgain I'm so sorry that you're going through this - I've been there with DD and bear the scars. It's partly why I'm so compassion-fatigued with my parents, I had this intense two years where I gave over my whole self to DD's issues and just as she got better they deteriorated. I did this awful thing of not letting on how much better DD was because I used her as a shield to stop myself giving everything over to their care. It's this awful thing that the only reason a woman can say no to caring for parents is if they're caring for even needier children. Yet men can say no for work or myriad reasons.

And yes, the NHS rations resources. Of course it does and if lots go on elderly people, fewer go elsewhere. I asked for my father's notes from the GP as I wanted to talk to a consultant friend with more knowledge. They couldn't email them over as the file was too big. 200 pages for the last two years! And I absolutely wanted him to have that care from the GP and district nurse and was probably a demanding daughter. But what if it came at the cost of someone putting off going to the GP about their weird bowel movements or some other potential cancer symptom? What if people are dying or young people going without help in order for my father to have had that extra miserable year?

I heard someone say on the radio that no health system will ever have enough funding because if we get better at treating and diagnosing cancer and heart issues, we'll be left with more people living long lives with dementia which costs far far more. The NHS might be noticeably in crisis but actually it's common to all western health systems - it's built in.

" It's this awful thing that the only reason a woman can say no to caring for parents is if they're caring for even needier children. Yet men can say no for work or myriad reasons."

a very perceptive observation and so true, @Valleyofthedollymix. An excellent post in toto actually

Thank you for being supportive.
Over the last 5 weeks, my mum has had at least 3 ambulance calls, visits by 4 paramedics, 2 GP house visits, at least 9 or 10 district nurse visits, and 3 long GP phonecalls.
My daughter has had nothing and there's no hope of anything before she turns 18 so I've been paying privately and have only just managed to get 'shared care' in place for her prescriptions. It makes me want to cry (and of course I realise how massively lucky I am to be able to pay privately. I don't know what I'd have done if we hadn't been able to find the money)
(Anyway, sorry that might start to be a bit of a derail)

I really need a whine

has anyone seen Bad Moms ? There is a scene where Kiki is fantasising about crashing her car so she can have some time in hospital with people looking after her for a change

thats exactly how I feel. I'm so fed up with looking after everyone else. Constant bloody demands from DPs, DH and Dd. Everyone wants my attention ALL THE GODDAMN TIME. I literally cannot get away from it, except when I am at work and I hate that too.
last week I spent 3 of my 4 days off parent wrangling.
this set of days off I actually have ended up with one real day off (today) in which I caught up with thrilling activities such as washing and cooking. I spent 3 hours doing the school run and sitting waiting for Dd to finish her riding which she very helpfully was late from.

im so fed up. I thought today as I sat in my car, again, that I might just as well not bloody bother having a house and just live in my car as it's where I seem to spend most of my time

ive got to go to mum and dads again tomorrow then my 4th day off is a training day so I have to go into work

at some point in my life I must have spent those 4 days off doing what I liked. I probably had the energy to meet friends, go shopping and do things. I can't remember those days, it feels like they happened to a different woman. This woman just drives round and round and fucking round endlessly, my car kindly afdvised me I've done 1400 miles since 20/12 and spent 54 hours in the car. I swear I spend more time in my car than I do having time off at home

I just wish everyone would eff off and leave me alone

I did buy the sheet music for this today though at an eye watering cost. Isn't it gorgeous. Thank god for my piano and piano lessons. They are an absolute solace and escape , I couldn't do without it now