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Elderly parents
Original poster

Person going into care home thinks they have avoided selling their house to pay fees?

440 replies

LindorDoubleChoc · 11/08/2023 19:59

A distant relative has just sadly gone into care (dementia). He is not married but has a long-term partner with whom he has two adult children.

His family seem to think he won't have to sell his property to pay for the fees because "he has put his house in his son's name". I'm trying to think what this means and surely if it were that simple everyone would do it?

Are they misunderstanding the system? Or how could they have achieved this? They are in England.

OP posts:
holidayhelpme · 12/08/2023 16:28

diddl · 12/08/2023 13:55

I agree in principle with self funding.

After all, you are selling your home & paying to live in another.

What I don't agree with is that self funders subsidise non self funders.

Also that people with dementia don't seem to get any funding at all & pay the full cost of their care.

THIS

i also know if an elderly lady who refused to go into a care home because SHE didn’t want her family home being sold to pay the fees! So she became more and more ill… pretended she was fine at the multiple hospital discharges .etc.. She would have been better off having a lovely last few years being looked after!

cptartapp · 12/08/2023 16:46

diddl · 12/08/2023 14:20

in effect, paying an extra £10,000 in tax every year.

Yes I was also thinking that.

My dad worked all his life, paid his taxes-decided to buy a house with his money.

Then not only does he have to sell to be cared for (dementia)-he also has to sub someone else!

He could have drip fed his money away to family over the years. Or spent it. The rules are well known. He gambled on saving it instead and chose not to.
People with Parkinson's, MS, stroke, osteoporosis, heart disease, rheumatoid arthritis and a whole multitude of ailments and general ageing also pay for their own residential care if they need it. Not just those with dementia.

Tiespin · 12/08/2023 16:48

Surely if you sign away everything to your kids to attempt to prevent yourself paying for your own care in old age you are playing Russian roulette with your future? You've no idea whether your kids would come to see you as a burden and a nuisance in later years, especially if you get dementia. Good care can be extremely expensive and why would you want to gamble on not being looked after properly?

SheilaFentiman · 12/08/2023 17:56

Ohpleeeease · 12/08/2023 13:19

The arrangement @gingercat02 describes is very common, the aim being to protect some of the estate for their DC.

Anyone savvy enough to do this is likely to have substantial means or assets, therefore they are unlikely to meet the threshold for financial assistance for quite a long time. In the meantime they will be meeting the full cost out of income and savings, which can’t be avoided. The care system still gets more money out of these clients than someone who has very limited assets to take into account, even if they don’t get the whole lot.

Exactly re substantial other assets

Seeingadistance · 12/08/2023 20:01

WeWereInParis · 11/08/2023 21:35

I'd much rather my parents could afford decent care than I inherited the house.

Show quote history

Same here. My DF is currently in a nursing home - at a cost of £5k per month and I am very glad that he has the money to fund it.

Original poster
LindorDoubleChoc · 12/08/2023 20:27

Well! I didn't expect this thread to get so many replies. Thanks to all who have contributed.

I think the question of funding for care home fees and / or carers coming to the house is coming more and more into the public conscious as our population ages significantly. Even if it is only 1 in 5 who need a care home - that is a vast number of people!

My Mum is 92 and went into a care home when she was 91, 8 months ago. Prior to that she had increasing amounts of care at home (all self funded) but even 4 x a day would not have been enough. She was falling and getting scared of being on her own.

My Mum has an asset - her home which we are selling - that could pay for her care until she dies unless she surprises everyone and outlives her funds (approx 3 years). Having funded her own care for 4 years and apparently contributed to others less fortunate, would the LA then move her out of this home whilst others who didn't have the means would continue to be funded by LA and other residents with more money? That seems incredibly unfair.

OP posts:
PurpleGreenandWhiteAreTheNewPrimaryColours · 12/08/2023 20:34

I work in HR for a national care home agency

The homes all have a mix of self pay and LA funded residents.

The same staff treat them and my job is to deal with the bad apples from those who don't follow procedures down to out and out neglect.

Many staff are great but I have a caseload of about 20 at a time who are facing disciplinary action.

This is only for 1/3 of our homes

It makes absolutely no difference if the resident is self funded or LA when it comes to how the staff treat them.

EmotionalBlackmail · 12/08/2023 20:35

Depends on which home(s) the LA has a contract with and what the contract says. Does the home already take some LA funded people? That makes it more likely.

We were told with self-funder going into residential care that was expensive that if she did run out they'd 'come to an arrangement' but they also went to some lengths to check she did have quite considerable funding available so they knew it would be fine for years!

PurpleGreenandWhiteAreTheNewPrimaryColours · 12/08/2023 20:40

I agree in principle with self funding but think the cap should be higher, eg 100k

Personally I'd rather go to the place in Switzerland if I get to the point of needing a care home and leave some money to my kids

I'm not sure I'd be well enough to appreciate the frills of a private home at that stage.

Original poster
LindorDoubleChoc · 12/08/2023 20:54

Of course there are many people who'd rather go to Switerland. But then there are more elderly people who still get enjoyment out of life, who aren't mentally impaired, but can't live on their own without help, who don't want to commit suicide.

Some people have a good quality of life in a care home - it really is not all doom and gloom! My mother still gets great pleasure from visits from her family and a couple of friends, a walk around the garden, interaction with her carers. She doesn't have dementia. She can walk with a walking frame and has lunch in the communal dining room every day. Not everyone who gets to 90 is in a rotten position. You don't have to be completely incapacitated to need full time care.

OP posts:
hatgirl · 12/08/2023 21:07

PurpleGreenandWhiteAreTheNewPrimaryColours · 12/08/2023 20:40

I agree in principle with self funding but think the cap should be higher, eg 100k

Personally I'd rather go to the place in Switzerland if I get to the point of needing a care home and leave some money to my kids

I'm not sure I'd be well enough to appreciate the frills of a private home at that stage.

In 15+ years of being a social worker I have yet to meet a single person who has taken themselves to Switzerland, or who have offed themselves before going into a care home.

It is human nature to try and survive, and by the time you realise its too late, its too late.

countrygirl99 · 12/08/2023 21:17

And many with alzheimers don't realise there is anything wrong because they forget all the times they forgot things or got confused and distressed. My mum is like that. As far as she is concerned she is perfectly healthy because she's forgotten the memory clinic appointments and the brain scan that led to her diagnosis. She thinks she manages fine while my siblings and I run around trying to resolve the chaos as she forgets to pay bills for services she's forgotten she used, deal with mouse infestations as she puts food in odd places, locate the source of foul smells when she puts food in random places and forgets it, panics because the heating hasn't come on because she's switched it off and forg she did etc.

Original poster
LindorDoubleChoc · 12/08/2023 21:19

Everyone says "who wants to live to 90+" until they get to that age. And then even if your life is much reduced by that age, most people want to carry on. Look at what the Queen and her husband were doing post 90. Are they the only ones who deserve to carry on? My dh had a great aunt who lived to 103 with no dementia, survived Covid and everything. We're surely not a society who puts very old people on the scrap heap.

OP posts:
RoseMartha · 12/08/2023 21:41

It depends if there is a Trust etc and whose name is on the deeds and if the house is still occupied.

SequentialAnalyst · 12/08/2023 21:51

I have a friend whose mother, now in her late nineties, went into quite a nice care home of her own volition, after living at home and having to go in and out of hospital a few times.

At her request and with her permission her family put her, now empty, house on the market, as everyone could foresee her small amount savings running out.

They got an offer, but it fell through. Meanwhile, she ran out of money, and had an LA assessment. When it came through, it was to offer carers 4 times a day in her own home.

Which had been totally cleared, and was still on the market. Friend explained the situation to the LA, but they were adamant. So DC have been paying the care home fees, and she will pay them back when the house is sold. Which hopefully will happen soon, as the house is now under offer again.

It's been a nightmare for the whole family Sad And none of the DC are well off.

Ohpleeeease · 12/08/2023 21:57

My Mum has an asset - her home which we are selling - that could pay for her care until she dies unless she surprises everyone and outlives her funds (approx 3 years). Having funded her own care for 4 years and apparently contributed to others less fortunate, would the LA then move her out of this home whilst others who didn't have the means would continue to be funded by LA and other residents with more money? That seems incredibly unfair.

It is a very unfair system. At her age it’s unlikely she would be moved, more likely a deal would be done with the care home by her social worker so that she could stay at the reduced LA rate. The care home would essentially take the hit on the deficit. If she were younger and likely to live longer it might be different.

AInightingale · 12/08/2023 23:07

LindorDoubleChoc · 12/08/2023 21:19

Everyone says "who wants to live to 90+" until they get to that age. And then even if your life is much reduced by that age, most people want to carry on. Look at what the Queen and her husband were doing post 90. Are they the only ones who deserve to carry on? My dh had a great aunt who lived to 103 with no dementia, survived Covid and everything. We're surely not a society who puts very old people on the scrap heap.

That's not the reality for the majority of people. Yes, the late Queen was awesome in her 90s but as you say, it's about the brain keeping up with the body. My mother at 87 is just a shadow of what she was, physically fantastic but the cognitive decline is torture to watch. I think it's wonderful if a 90 year old can stay in their own home and continue to enjoy life, but I can say I'd rather be six foot under than endure dementia.

MereDintofPandiculation · 13/08/2023 08:10

LindorDoubleChoc · 12/08/2023 21:19

Everyone says "who wants to live to 90+" until they get to that age. And then even if your life is much reduced by that age, most people want to carry on. Look at what the Queen and her husband were doing post 90. Are they the only ones who deserve to carry on? My dh had a great aunt who lived to 103 with no dementia, survived Covid and everything. We're surely not a society who puts very old people on the scrap heap.

Well, we do. Look at the funding of care homes. Look at treatment of people who don’t “need” a care home, for whom it is regarded that living in one room with a commode is an adequate quality of life. What is that if not being put on the scrapheap?

EmmaGrundyForPM · 13/08/2023 08:26

@SequentialAnalyst the fact is that many self-funders move into residential care before they need to. There are other options such as Extra Care which may be far more suitable. I think residential care for someone who is cognitively fine should be a last resort.

LAs don't have the money to fund care home placements just because someone likes the idea of a care home. There has to be an assessment process with clear eligibility criteria.

One of the problems is that the alternatives to residential care aren't really known about in the general public. GPs don't know about the alternatives so often suggest a care home when they are really not suitable for a lot of people.

Ohpleeeease · 13/08/2023 08:35

Completely agree with you @MereDintofPandiculation. If anyone suggested that we should stop trying to save very sick babies even though they may face a lifetime of health issues and have complex and resource intensive care needs, people would be horrified. And yet it’s ok for someone nearing the end of their life to be allowed to suffer discomfort and indignity because it’s deemed too expensive to meet those needs for the limited time they exist.

Custardslices · 13/08/2023 08:45

If these care homes aren't doing it for big profits where are they spending the money on? A care home bed capacity is around 30 rooms on average in my area.

Carers min wage. A nurse on shift, gas, electricity and food insurance.

Why are the carers so badly paid? Considering without them there is no care home or service to be offered. Bizzare we are all fretting on funding but the very core to providing this we seem happy with how it is.

Ohpleeeease · 13/08/2023 10:04

A lot of care homes have massive maintenance and running costs because they’re housed in buildings that aren’t fit for purpose. Many of those are struggling to meet modern compliance regulations. I should think the purpose built ones are more cost efficient to run but they won’t be charging any less. Lots of profit to be made there.

Caring has always been seen as unskilled work, it requires compassion, patience, a sense of humour and some physical strength. Those attributes aren’t valued, sadly.

GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER · 13/08/2023 10:14

@NotImpressedByYourBragging , what is so often not mentioned in this context, is that it is something of a ‘luxury’ to be able to self fund. It means that you are not at the mercy of almost invariably hard-pressed social services, who will typically wait until family doing their best to care are on their knees with stress and exhaustion (I’m particularly talking dementia here) before they’ll even consider funding a care home place. Hardly surprising, when you consider the cost.

I say this as someone whose DM and FiL, both with dementia, were self funded. TBH we were very thankful both times, to be able to choose the time and place ourselves.

countrygirl99 · 13/08/2023 10:17

Homes have to be heated to a higher level than most domestic homes so heating bills are very high. They need specialist equipment, hoists, specialist beds and mattresses. Laundry bills are high. As well as care staff there will be catering and cleaning staff and admin staff to sort payroll and rotas, pay the bills, deal with enquiries, communicate with families, GPs etc. Then there are activities which need materials/staff.