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Elderly parents
Original poster

Person going into care home thinks they have avoided selling their house to pay fees?

440 replies

LindorDoubleChoc · 11/08/2023 19:59

A distant relative has just sadly gone into care (dementia). He is not married but has a long-term partner with whom he has two adult children.

His family seem to think he won't have to sell his property to pay for the fees because "he has put his house in his son's name". I'm trying to think what this means and surely if it were that simple everyone would do it?

Are they misunderstanding the system? Or how could they have achieved this? They are in England.

OP posts:
WantingToEducate · 12/08/2023 07:34

My mum is in the process of buying a new home and she is purchasing it in my name.

She is only 55 so unlikely to need nursing home care in the near future.

There aren’t going to be any mortgage implications as she is buying the house outright from the sale of her current home (she is mortgage free).

The solicitors are aware she is doing this and the reasons why.

For any fees that are incurred in the process of buying the new house, surveys, general admin fees etc, my mum will put the money in my bank and then I will ring the solicitor and pay the bills direct from my account.

My mum is adamant that she does not want all the things she has worked for over the duration of her active life being taken by the government at the detriment of her children and grandchildren’s inheritances.

I have told her that I’m really not fussed about inheritances and it’s more important that she has good nursing care if she needs it but she doesn’t want to hear it.

And speaking from the experience of having worked in various care homes, just because the private ones are bigger and look nicer and the staff wear fancier uniforms, that certainly doesn’t mean the quality of care is better.

ArcticSkewer · 12/08/2023 07:35

Freysimo · 12/08/2023 07:27

Absolutely this. If I ever need care, I want the best care, not funded by the LA.

Show quote history

Go take a look at what 'best' means.

I saw appallingly cruel staff at some care homes. Where people need nursing care, not just residential, they get away with murder (hopefully not literally) as the residents are powerless. Regardless of the ££££ they pay for the privilege.

Velvian · 12/08/2023 07:46

If his partner is living there as her only home, it won't be included in the Financial Assessment.

LaunchingTeabag · 12/08/2023 07:47

What if the person needing care had a home that was paid for, had done equity release and gifted the money to their children?

What could the LA do in that case if the person then required care, say a decade or so down the line?

JanieEyre · 12/08/2023 07:55

LindorDoubleChoc · 11/08/2023 20:53

To those who think the LA will always find out - is that a bit hit and miss depending on LA (as with school place fraud) or absolutely 100% guaranteed? Would it be possible to hide/disguise it in any way?

Given the cost of care home fees, I'd say it's pretty much guaranteed. It's very easy for them to check out when a transfer happened.

Ohpleeeease · 12/08/2023 07:58

The deprivation of assets rule is to catch people who know they are going to need care and deliberately seek to evade care fees. It’s less likely to be applied when the person has full capacity and no immediate prospect of needing care when they make the transfer.

I agree we should contribute towards our care fees if we can, but I wonder how many people realise that self funders are subsidising LA funded beds because these are capped at a significantly lower rate. So the costs to self funders can be eye watering.

SheilaFentiman · 12/08/2023 08:05

The other thing to remember is that, if there are plenty of assets apart from the house, the LA won’t get involved as the person will be self pay. My dad is self pay, my mum is in their joint home, but his work pension, state pension, attendance allowance, care contribution policy are enough to cover the weekly rate. My mum has care visits at home. Overall, they are eating into savings a little, but not appreciably, and it will be a long time until the assets bar the house are reduced to the LA level.

Once they are, the LA will pay the set level towards the home and we can choose to top it up so that he doesn’t have to move (DH did this for MIL for a few months before she died)

Words · 12/08/2023 08:05

I think it's hard to generalise about private versus LA. I've had elderly parents in both. Thé LA one was grim but serviceable. The two private ones were better. Until the family who ran my mother's home sold it to a group.

The nice carpets, extensive grounds, and onsite hairdresser, remained, but standards of care plummeted. All the existing staff left and were replaced by agency staff.

Subsequently my late mother's care shortly before her death became the subject of a LA enquiry with CQC involvement. They found one case of neglect and two other instances of likely neglect were there was insufficient evidence.

MereDintofPandiculation · 12/08/2023 08:05

@Mbop The 7 years applies to Inheritance Tax. It doesn’t apply to deprivation of assets.

Care is expensive and who else is supposed to pay for it? You can't expect the state to pay for everyone, and those who do get funding from the state are often put in homes they really would not choose to be in. We expect the state to pay for everyone with, say, cancer. Why isn’t cancer treatment means tested? Because we’ve made the decision that medical care should be funded for everyone. So why shouldn’t we make the same decision for elder care? You may not approve of inheritance, but the current system where inheritance is a lottery is unfair. Parents work hard to try to leave something for DC or GC, and then it is all wiped out.

SheilaFentiman · 12/08/2023 08:06

LaunchingTeabag · 12/08/2023 07:47

What if the person needing care had a home that was paid for, had done equity release and gifted the money to their children?

What could the LA do in that case if the person then required care, say a decade or so down the line?

The LA can seek it back from the recipients, depending on the circumstances of the gift.

Meredusoleil · 12/08/2023 08:10

Does anyone know if a property can be disregarded by the government if an adult child owns a share, lives in it with children under 5 and the parent signs the rest over WHILST they are in a care home (and also <1 year before they die)???

SheilaFentiman · 12/08/2023 08:11

MereDintofPandiculation · 12/08/2023 08:05

@Mbop The 7 years applies to Inheritance Tax. It doesn’t apply to deprivation of assets.

Care is expensive and who else is supposed to pay for it? You can't expect the state to pay for everyone, and those who do get funding from the state are often put in homes they really would not choose to be in. We expect the state to pay for everyone with, say, cancer. Why isn’t cancer treatment means tested? Because we’ve made the decision that medical care should be funded for everyone. So why shouldn’t we make the same decision for elder care? You may not approve of inheritance, but the current system where inheritance is a lottery is unfair. Parents work hard to try to leave something for DC or GC, and then it is all wiped out.

Hi @MereDintofPandiculation !

care homes include heating, lighting, rent, food, cleaning. All of these a person would have to pay for from pension etc if not in the home. So I think it is unreasonable to pay nothing.

the funding model of residential care (ie not nursing) has, I think, never been folded into NHS funding. I suppose it could be an analogy with housing benefit rather than healthcare? Ie you get support if you need it to live somewhere and not if you don’t.

SheilaFentiman · 12/08/2023 08:13

Meredusoleil · 12/08/2023 08:10

Does anyone know if a property can be disregarded by the government if an adult child owns a share, lives in it with children under 5 and the parent signs the rest over WHILST they are in a care home (and also <1 year before they die)???

I think the LA could put a charge on the share. If funds could be found elsewhere to settle the charge of the few months left Flowers then I don’t think the house would need to be sold. But I am not an expert and suggest Age Concern, as others have.

Meredusoleil · 12/08/2023 08:16

SheilaFentiman · 12/08/2023 08:13

I think the LA could put a charge on the share. If funds could be found elsewhere to settle the charge of the few months left Flowers then I don’t think the house would need to be sold. But I am not an expert and suggest Age Concern, as others have.

Show quote history

Thanks for the reply. That's what I was thinking too. Also, does anyone know if IHT would be due as the first share was done <7 years before death? I know that's not what this thread is about. But just curious.

Ihateboris · 12/08/2023 08:18

WeWereInParis · 11/08/2023 21:35

I'd much rather my parents could afford decent care than I inherited the house.

Show quote history

Exactly.

SheilaFentiman · 12/08/2023 08:20

Meredusoleil · 12/08/2023 08:16

Thanks for the reply. That's what I was thinking too. Also, does anyone know if IHT would be due as the first share was done <7 years before death? I know that's not what this thread is about. But just curious.

Show quote history

A gift more than 7 years ago falls outside of iht.

remember also that iht is only due on estates above a certain value

Wenfy · 12/08/2023 08:21

WantingToEducate · 12/08/2023 07:34

My mum is in the process of buying a new home and she is purchasing it in my name.

She is only 55 so unlikely to need nursing home care in the near future.

There aren’t going to be any mortgage implications as she is buying the house outright from the sale of her current home (she is mortgage free).

The solicitors are aware she is doing this and the reasons why.

For any fees that are incurred in the process of buying the new house, surveys, general admin fees etc, my mum will put the money in my bank and then I will ring the solicitor and pay the bills direct from my account.

My mum is adamant that she does not want all the things she has worked for over the duration of her active life being taken by the government at the detriment of her children and grandchildren’s inheritances.

I have told her that I’m really not fussed about inheritances and it’s more important that she has good nursing care if she needs it but she doesn’t want to hear it.

And speaking from the experience of having worked in various care homes, just because the private ones are bigger and look nicer and the staff wear fancier uniforms, that certainly doesn’t mean the quality of care is better.

Does she know that were you to die before her (and without a will) the property would go automatically to your spouse? And if no spouse your kids will need to pay inheritance tax if this bumps your assets to over the threshold? Better for the property to be in their names as it’s effectively tax free for them.

Meredusoleil · 12/08/2023 08:21

SheilaFentiman · 12/08/2023 08:20

A gift more than 7 years ago falls outside of iht.

remember also that iht is only due on estates above a certain value

Show quote history

The first share was within 5 years of death. The rest was signed over within a year. No will. Property worth over £1m with no mortgage.

Ohpleeeease · 12/08/2023 08:23

Words · 12/08/2023 08:05

I think it's hard to generalise about private versus LA. I've had elderly parents in both. Thé LA one was grim but serviceable. The two private ones were better. Until the family who ran my mother's home sold it to a group.

The nice carpets, extensive grounds, and onsite hairdresser, remained, but standards of care plummeted. All the existing staff left and were replaced by agency staff.

Subsequently my late mother's care shortly before her death became the subject of a LA enquiry with CQC involvement. They found one case of neglect and two other instances of likely neglect were there was insufficient evidence.

I was going to post something along these lines. Avoiding care fees is one thing, but you need to think what sort of care will be available to you.

MereDintofPandiculation · 12/08/2023 08:24

Wibbleswombat · 11/08/2023 23:54

I know someone who gave the house to their son, he mortgaged it, then didn't pay the interest, so it was repossessed.

And another who sold to son, he then charged them market rent...

He was possibly charging market rent for Inheritance Tax reasons - it doesn’t count as a gift if you still benefit from it, eg living in it below market rent, so it’s still regarded as part of your Estate.

Paul2023 · 12/08/2023 08:25

May I ask a question ? I’ve heard of a property disregard. So if a couple own a property and one of them goes into a cafe home, the property can’t be sold as there is still someone living there.

What happens if the person in the care home dies and then the other person dies at
home?

Do the authorities basically split the property value into two and take the share of the person who died in the care home to fund the care they received? Leaving the other 50% of the property to whoever is in the will?

thedevilinablackdress · 12/08/2023 08:32

What happens in these cases where DPs have signed over their house to a DC, and that DC then goes through a divorce and has to split assets with spouse. Or becomes bankrupt? DPs then homeless?

JaukiVexnoydi · 12/08/2023 08:32

I wouldn't do this because the care homes that have fees low enough for fully-funded council places are so much more grim and unpleasant than the homes that are a bit more expensive.

If you've got a house and no longer need it because you are going into a residential care home for the last few years of yout life then it's absolutely the best use of that money to use it to pay for those last few years to be comfortable.

I would rather not inherit a penny from my parents but know they are safe, comfortable and well cared for in a high quality care home, rather than cooperate with them being neglected and unhappy in an inadequately funded, understaffed minimum-fee care home, just so that my inheritance could be preserved.

thinkkook · 12/08/2023 08:34

All the people going on about council run care homes - how many of these exist where you live? Where I am there is one and the rest of private.

The council one is really popular and well runs however most people end up in the private ones funded by the council- same room as the self-funder next door. 🤷🏼‍♀️

Mindymomo · 12/08/2023 08:35

@Paul2023 my mum was in a state funded care home for 6 years before she died, all her pension was paid to care home and my Dad paid another £200 per month. Dad lived in marital home and died some 7 years later. The house was left to us children and nobody contacted us regarding paying any monies and I’m sure if there were anything owed, we would have heard about it, so I don’t believe they do this, but this was 8 years ago now.

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